Paph. rothschildianum (0288)

[tnyr5]

Even if the giant hybrids do make it here, I doubt the AOS standard will raise that high. We simply can't grow them that well, hah!

 

[Duck Slipper]

One of the problem, having traded a lot with the Taiwanese, is that it was and is common practice between most of the growers to exchange batches, and even rename the same cultivar/cross by grower.

As an example
AP-139 “Lion king” x NTP-266 “Six”

is in truth from Shen-Liu, TN-Lion King x TN-SixFay

So it is very complicated to know what's what...

One of the problem is that as of now, it is very difficult to know if a roth is pure or not by looking at it, and I expect it will be increasingly so...
Something like that:



could be easily passed a a very big roth...

If an unusually large Roth is offered for judging, and it is not 100% Roth….all of this can be disclosed with genetic testing??

 

[Roth]

If an unusually large Roth is offered for judging, and it is not 100% Roth….all of this can be disclosed with genetic testing??

In theory yes... but how to compare, which sequences, etc... is the big question...

After there will be a question of instinct, quite subjective, but as an example, there is a GM/TPS a couple days ago that looks 'very' bizarre. Photos are private on Facebook...

The color seems to be weird, the plant is weird as well... To prove what is what would be very difficult. Look at primulinum, spicerianum, callosum, etc...

 

[tnyr5]

I'm guessing this is one of the suspect "rothschildianum" you've been talking about: 'Golden Shih Yueh' GM/TIOS
NS 35.5cm, Dorsal Width 7.7cm. Impressive even as a hybrid, but assuming those petals aren't being blown in a breeze, it would barely make 90 points for an FCC under AOS scoring, and possibly not even hit 90 with such inconsistent form, at least in the northeast centers.

 

[DrLeslieEe]

You may have to stop fixating on size. Yes size is important but being bigger then most does not qualify any species a flower quality award.
When I first entered the judging program, judges in the NE were fixated on size, it is bigger or small then that! We have thankfully evolved past that. Form is so much more important to me. It is the overall size of every segment, how they relate to one and other. Award photographs of a Paphiopedilum rothschildianum are now suppose to include an image of the back of the flower. AOS wants to see how well the two sepals relate to each other.
Another thing you must remember. There are 200 +/- awards to Roth. But now, it takes the full package to get an award.

You just mentioned that the current standards for a Rothschildianum is a natural spread of over 33 cm.! I am here to tell you that that is simply not true. You may be surprised to know that a clone 'Black Hawk' just captured an FCC two months ago on March 11th, 2023. 3 flowers, one bud, ns. of 24.5cm. x 11.3 cm., ds6.5 cm. x 6.9 cm. , petals were 1.5 cm. x 13.6 cm. , ls was 5.5 cm. x 6.0 cm. and the pouch was 2.8 x 6.5 cm. ! Not exactly what was quoted above. You must look at the entire package when evaluating something like a rothschildianum. This was the most recent FCC to a Roth in Orchid Pro.

Here is another. 'James C. Arnold' FCC 91 from May of 2022.
4 flowers, no buds. ns 32.0 x 11.9
ds. 6.5 x 6.8
pet. 1.3 x 15.0
syn. 5.7 x 7.4
pouch 2.8 x 7.1
Now honestly, I could not have scored this second one an FCC! For one, the dorsal was very "funky" looking. It was somewhat hooded and the margin was kind of cuppy I guess we could say. It was not flat and broad. Gave me cause to think. From the image. the pouch looked too narrow and elongated. there is much more to it then size. Give me a rothschildianum that comes to the table saying, "Hey look at me!" I am a badass flower dude! Check me out!!!

I agree with you…. Form and color is after all 60-70 points of the AOS score! Size is 10 points…

Harmony should be balance when all points consider.

As for roth imposters, they will come and the AOS will have to learn through educating forums like these. And experiences.

Also, the AOS measures dorsal when flatten. I’m sure TOGA does too (just confirmed with a Taiwan judge).

The standards around the world will differ a little bit but through my experiences in differing systems (with US, British, Taiwan, Colombia and Japan judges) a great flower is a great flower to ALL judges. A few may subjectively disagree with the team and may recuse themselves from objective scoring (as they can exercise that right).

A wow factor is usually universal lol.

 

[Ozpaph]

He all hope for honesty

 

[Ozpaph]

In Australia - no flower manipulation for judging. Its measured 'en face, as is', not flattened.

 

[Duck Slipper]

I will admit, I do not know much about judging...especially in Taiwan! But, I don't see a reason for that to be awarded. Black leaf tips, and a cupped dorsal alone should at least have it passed over? I guess size matters.

 

[DrLeslieEe]

In Australia - no flower manipulation for judging. It’s measured 'en face, as is', not flattened.

Just to confirm: Natural spread size isn’t flatten in AOS. Only floral parts individually.

Not sure in Australia if same?

 

[DrLeslieEe]

I will admit, I do not know much about judging...especially in Taiwan! But, I don't see a reason for that to be awarded. Black leaf tips, and a cupped dorsal alone should at least have it passed over? I guess size matters.

Yes I’m inclined to agree.

Though we are judging the flower for quality (not plant for culture), it still makes an impression that the plant may not be flowering at its best.

The petal twist at the end is a big issue. Maybe that happened after judging?

 

[Tony]

I agree with you…. Form and color is after all 60-70 points of the AOS score! Size is 10 points…

If every plant that was submitted for judging got scored then size might not be so critical, but an undersized flower is going to be screened 99 times out of 100 and never see a score sheet. Size is only 10 points but it also gets plants to the judging table.

 

[DrLeslieEe]

If every plant that was submitted for judging got scored then size might not be so critical, but an undersized flower is going to be screened 99 times out of 100 and never see a score sheet. Size is only 10 points but it also gets plants to the judging table.

Yes you’re absolutely correct…. the first 10 points gets you in the door.

Our point is that if the size is not over 30 cm but above 25 cm, it should be considered if all other factors are in good standing.

Aka less than 30 cm NS shouldn’t be a fatal flaw.

 

[Tony]

Yes you’re absolutely correct…. the first 10 points gets you in the door.

Our point is that if the size is not over 30 cm but above 25 cm, it should be considered if all other factors are in good standing.

Aka less than 30 cm NS shouldn’t be a fatal flaw.

I agree, but as you know every center and every judge has their quirks. When I took my Hsinying Anita up and got an FCC I also took a first bloom roths, only 3 flowers but 27cm with nice color and form. It was within range of current HCC plants and I ran pictures past a buddy who is a judge in another center who agreed it was likely awardable. It got screened with a note that they liked it and wanted to see it again when it was more mature, one judge told me privately that if it wasn't 30cm and five flowers it wasn't going to get nominated. Granted that's just one judge in one center but it is an indicator of the standard expected for the next gen of awards.

 

[Tony]

And just to clarify, I wasn't at all upset about it. The roths was a plant I took because I was already going with another plant I knew would be awarded and not one I would have made the trip for alone. I'm all for a high standard because that makes awards more meaningful. Besides, maybe on another day a more charitable judge will throw me a pity nomination for a four flowered plant lol

 

[Camellkc]

One of the problem, having traded a lot with the Taiwanese, is that it was and is common practice between most of the growers to exchange batches, and even rename the same cultivar/cross by grower.

As an example
AP-139 “Lion king” x NTP-266 “Six”

is in truth from Shen-Liu, TN-Lion King x TN-SixFay

So it is very complicated to know what's what...

One of the problem is that as of now, it is very difficult to know if a roth is pure or not by looking at it, and I expect it will be increasingly so...
Something like that:



could be easily passed a a very big roth...

The reason for your observation on using different clone’s name for the same clone in Taiwan is due to when the same clone is divided to different breeder, they will use a specific clone’s name that suit their own need. For example, Mr. Shen always use TN as the beginning for all his clone while Archit Chang always use AP as his beginning.

However, if you are within their group for a long time, you will approximately know which breeder owns which clone for breeding, or even which breeder sell/give the pollen for a particular clone to another breeder for breeding. No secret, haha.

 

[spujr]

Judgment strictly on ns seems odd to me considering the length would be determined a lot by the angle (or straightness) of the petals.

I think I know the answer to this question but I'll ask anyways: if someone had a previously awarded plant to compare for a new variety, would that be something the judges would consider when evaluating the new variety? Meaning, if someone had 'Mnt. Milias' flowering with some new line and the new line looked "better" in form/size/ whatever, would the judges consider giving an award just in that basis? I'm assuming no, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[DrLeslieEe]

Judgment strictly on ns seems odd to me considering the length would be determined a lot by the angle (or straightness) of the petals.

I think I know the answer to this question but I'll ask anyways: if someone had a previously awarded plant to compare for a new variety, would that be something the judges would consider when evaluating the new variety? Meaning, if someone had 'Mnt. Milias' flowering with some new line and the new line looked "better" in form/size/ whatever, would the judges consider giving an award just in that basis? I'm assuming no, but maybe I'm wrong.

Good point. Sometimes the angle of the petals pointing in a downward angle does decrease the overall size of the flower. The more horizontal petals are preferred as it gives the flower a more commanding stance. Thus when two plants with flowers possessing same petal lengths, the one with the larger NS (looking more horizontal) will likely get a higher point if all other factors are equal.

The look for an improvement of the next line is what the judges look for, whether it’s color, number of flowers, NS or wider floral parts, all play in the role of this determination. A discussion among the judges will be able to wean this out with proper research.

There is also the controversy with lateral awards. If a flower is the same quality as the last few, and there are a hundred awards, should it still be awarded? I’m curious on what our experienced members think?

 

[tnyr5]

So long as awards cost $45-65 each, there will be lateral awards lol.

 

[Roth]

The reason for your observation on using different clone’s name for the same clone in Taiwan is due to when the same clone is divided to different breeder, they will use a specific clone’s name that suit their own need. For example, Mr. Shen always use TN as the beginning for all his clone while Archit Chang always use AP as his beginning.

However, if you are within their group for a long time, you will approximately know which breeder owns which clone for breeding, or even which breeder sell/give the pollen for a particular clone to another breeder for breeding. No secret, haha.

That's true, but there are some secrets still... Mr. Shen has amazing quality, and the plants bloom true to what he sells... Others, it may vary let's say. Exchanging pollen is not always a great idea, because they tend to trust each other as a group, and one Sunlight Sky Roths in the middle can in fact screw a few breeding lines...

There are 3-4 I trust in that group, the remaining, looking at how they criticize the others when discussing with buyers are more suspicious I would say...

 

[Camellkc]

That's true, but there are some secrets still... Mr. Shen has amazing quality, and the plants bloom true to what he sells... Others, it may vary let's say. Exchanging pollen is not always a great idea, because they tend to trust each other as a group, and one Sunlight Sky Roths in the middle can in fact screw a few breeding lines...

There are 3-4 I trust in that group, the remaining, looking at how they criticize the others when discussing with buyers are more suspicious I would say...

I can tell you that if I wish to buy top quality multi floral paphs, in particular for roths, I will not approach Mr. Shen now but the breeders in south of Taiwan. Top quality multi floral paphs are mostly owned by south Taiwan breeder, at least until now.

Mr. Shen’s paph is very suitable for beginners and for those who need a certain quality clones, and the price he sells is fair and acceptable. BTW, be aware that he is an expert photographer too, in particular for taking Paph photos.