Paph. rothschildianum (0288)

[Camellkc]

Good strip, good petal stance, good dorsal shape, but not meeting the current size standard.

 

[SlipperKing]

A nice roth. The parents are unknown?

 

[emydura]

Very nice. So what is the size and what size does it need to be?

 

[Camellkc]

A nice roth. The parents are unknown?

266 (6 flowers) x butterfly

 

[Camellkc]

Very nice. So what is the size and what size does it need to be?

DS 5 point something, and NS around 30.

Current standards for a good size roths flower are DS over 7 and NS over 33.

 

[monocotman]

It’s still a very striking set of blooms!

 

[big923cattleya]

You may have to stop fixating on size. Yes size is important but being bigger then most does not qualify any species a flower quality award.
When I first entered the judging program, judges in the NE were fixated on size, it is bigger or small then that! We have thankfully evolved past that. Form is so much more important to me. It is the overall size of every segment, how they relate to one and other. Award photographs of a Paphiopedilum rothschildianum are now suppose to include an image of the back of the flower. AOS wants to see how well the two sepals relate to each other.
Another thing you must remember. There are 200 +/- awards to Roth. But now, it takes the full package to get an award.

You just mentioned that the current standards for a Rothschildianum is a natural spread of over 33 cm.! I am here to tell you that that is simply not true. You may be surprised to know that a clone 'Black Hawk' just captured an FCC two months ago on March 11th, 2023. 3 flowers, one bud, ns. of 24.5cm. x 11.3 cm., ds6.5 cm. x 6.9 cm. , petals were 1.5 cm. x 13.6 cm. , ls was 5.5 cm. x 6.0 cm. and the pouch was 2.8 x 6.5 cm. ! Not exactly what was quoted above. You must look at the entire package when evaluating something like a rothschildianum. This was the most recent FCC to a Roth in Orchid Pro.

Here is another. 'James C. Arnold' FCC 91 from May of 2022.
4 flowers, no buds. ns 32.0 x 11.9
ds. 6.5 x 6.8
pet. 1.3 x 15.0
syn. 5.7 x 7.4
pouch 2.8 x 7.1
Now honestly, I could not have scored this second one an FCC! For one, the dorsal was very "funky" looking. It was somewhat hooded and the margin was kind of cuppy I guess we could say. It was not flat and broad. Gave me cause to think. From the image. the pouch looked too narrow and elongated. there is much more to it then size. Give me a rothschildianum that comes to the table saying, "Hey look at me!" I am a badass flower dude! Check me out!!!

 

[Camellkc]

You may have to stop fixating on size. Yes size is important but being bigger then most does not qualify any species a flower quality award.
When I first entered the judging program, judges in the NE were fixated on size, it is bigger or small then that! We have thankfully evolved past that. Form is so much more important to me. It is the overall size of every segment, how they relate to one and other. Award photographs of a Paphiopedilum rothschildianum are now suppose to include an image of the back of the flower. AOS wants to see how well the two sepals relate to each other.
Another thing you must remember. There are 200 +/- awards to Roth. But now, it takes the full package to get an award.

You just mentioned that the current standards for a Rothschildianum is a natural spread of over 33 cm.! I am here to tell you that that is simply not true. You may be surprised to know that a clone 'Black Hawk' just captured an FCC two months ago on March 11th, 2023. 3 flowers, one bud, ns. of 24.5cm. x 11.3 cm., ds6.5 cm. x 6.9 cm. , petals were 1.5 cm. x 13.6 cm. , ls was 5.5 cm. x 6.0 cm. and the pouch was 2.8 x 6.5 cm. ! Not exactly what was quoted above. You must look at the entire package when evaluating something like a rothschildianum. This was the most recent FCC to a Roth in Orchid Pro.

Here is another. 'James C. Arnold' FCC 91 from May of 2022.
4 flowers, no buds. ns 32.0 x 11.9
ds. 6.5 x 6.8
pet. 1.3 x 15.0
syn. 5.7 x 7.4
pouch 2.8 x 7.1
Now honestly, I could not have scored this second one an FCC! For one, the dorsal was very "funky" looking. It was somewhat hooded and the margin was kind of cuppy I guess we could say. It was not flat and broad. Gave me cause to think. From the image. the pouch looked too narrow and elongated. there is much more to it than size. Give me a rothschildianum that comes to the table saying, "Hey look at me!" I am a badass flower dude! Check me out!!!

Thanks for your inputs. I am not saying that you are wrong, but i will assess the awarding standard by using the recent Taiwanese standard, at least for multiforal paphs and up to this moment.

 

[big923cattleya]

Just the difference between the 2 Judging Systems I guess.

 

[Tony]

I had an AOS judge tell me earlier this year he wouldn't nominate a roths with less than 5 flowers and 30cm NS.

 

[big923cattleya]

It is only his opinion. An opinion that really makes no difference. That is why we judge
in teams of three. No one person can force an outcome or result. If the three member team can’t reach a decision, the plant goes to another team.

 

[Ozpaph]

Id be very happy with that flower.

 

[Tony]

It is only his opinion. An opinion that really makes no difference. That is why we judge
in teams of three. No one person can force an outcome or result. If the three member team can’t reach a decision, the plant goes to another team.

One person certainly can and I'm short an AM to prove it lol

 

[Roth]

DS 5 point something, and NS around 30.

Current standards for a good size roths flower are DS over 7 and NS over 33.

That's where people should be careful, because those current standards are based as well on Sunlight Sky Roths and a few other hybrids ( yellow background color, pinkish pouch...).

At a point when the Orchid Zone got those Pinnochio Yellow from Europe and sold them as Paph. primulinum, it took ages for people to realize that they were misled. The same happened with spicerianum, charlesworthii and others, the 'new standards' were based on hybrids, and it took time to realize the species were lost in cultivation or nearly so.

I see some Taiwanese selling cheaply older award rothschildianum now, because of those 'gigantic' roth, but I would be much, much more careful before discarding those authentic plants...

 

[Roth]

You may have to stop fixating on size. Yes size is important but being bigger then most does not qualify any species a flower quality award.
When I first entered the judging program, judges in the NE were fixated on size, it is bigger or small then that! We have thankfully evolved past that. Form is so much more important to me. It is the overall size of every segment, how they relate to one and other. Award photographs of a Paphiopedilum rothschildianum are now suppose to include an image of the back of the flower. AOS wants to see how well the two sepals relate to each other.
Another thing you must remember. There are 200 +/- awards to Roth. But now, it takes the full package to get an award.

You just mentioned that the current standards for a Rothschildianum is a natural spread of over 33 cm.! I am here to tell you that that is simply not true. You may be surprised to know that a clone 'Black Hawk' just captured an FCC two months ago on March 11th, 2023. 3 flowers, one bud, ns. of 24.5cm. x 11.3 cm., ds6.5 cm. x 6.9 cm. , petals were 1.5 cm. x 13.6 cm. , ls was 5.5 cm. x 6.0 cm. and the pouch was 2.8 x 6.5 cm. ! Not exactly what was quoted above. You must look at the entire package when evaluating something like a rothschildianum. This was the most recent FCC to a Roth in Orchid Pro.

Here is another. 'James C. Arnold' FCC 91 from May of 2022.
4 flowers, no buds. ns 32.0 x 11.9
ds. 6.5 x 6.8
pet. 1.3 x 15.0
syn. 5.7 x 7.4
pouch 2.8 x 7.1
Now honestly, I could not have scored this second one an FCC! For one, the dorsal was very "funky" looking. It was somewhat hooded and the margin was kind of cuppy I guess we could say. It was not flat and broad. Gave me cause to think. From the image. the pouch looked too narrow and elongated. there is much more to it then size. Give me a rothschildianum that comes to the table saying, "Hey look at me!" I am a badass flower dude! Check me out!!!

Well for one something is screwed up with the measurements,

The spread of a rothschildianum is the petal + the petal. Hence here the calculationis 15 + 15 = 32... New arithmetic I guess...

Those last 2 FCC are indeed surprising, though Black Hawk is nice, but not FCC quality. Mt Millais itself is still far better than those two...

The problem is that the US do not yet have the hybrid epidemic, but it will come through imports. Taiwan always starts to award very dubious roths, in fact Sunlight Sky Roths and some others, as roths... which changes everything. When those plants reach the US, 35-40cm roths with 8-9cm dorsal will be the new award norm.

This said, I prefer a smaller flower with a perfect shape and color, than an huge one with poor color and/or shape...

In the meantime, I am very happy of the situation, some very famous Taiwanese roths, including awarded ones are available for cheap

 

[Camellkc]

That's where people should be careful, because those current standards are based as well on Sunlight Sky Roths and a few other hybrids ( yellow background color, pinkish pouch...).

At a point when the Orchid Zone got those Pinnochio Yellow from Europe and sold them as Paph. primulinum, it took ages for people to realize that they were misled. The same happened with spicerianum, charlesworthii and others, the 'new standards' were based on hybrids, and it took time to realize the species were lost in cultivation or nearly so.

I see some Taiwanese selling cheaply older award rothschildianum now, because of those 'gigantic' roth, but I would be much, much more careful before discarding those authentic plants...

Your comment is valid so that we need to know the parents before buying. Of course, whether the seller will tell you the truth is a question, in particular for some of those Taiwanese sellers expertise on overseas market. Anyway, buying from a reputable seller for a true rothschildianum will give you more guarantee.

BTW, I had attended a gathering organized by paph hobbyist in Taiwan in late April and the roths displayed by the top cultivators in the gathering are really mad, and I think none of them are hybrid by looking at their traits.

During the gathering, we had also exchanged views on the grading system between AOS and TPS/TOGA, and we generally agreed that the scale for grading paphs, in particular for multi floral paphs are much more strict for Taiwanese organizations.

Also, size of the flower is one of the important determinant factors for the score, but they also look for the balance and coloration of the flower for granting high score. Roths flower with “big head” will definitely not score a high mark.

 

[Camellkc]

Well for one something is screwed up with the measurements,

The spread of a rothschildianum is the petal + the petal. Hence here the calculationis 15 + 15 = 32... New arithmetic I guess...

Those last 2 FCC are indeed surprising, though Black Hawk is nice, but not FCC quality. Mt Millais itself is still far better than those two...

The problem is that the US do not yet have the hybrid epidemic, but it will come through imports. Taiwan always starts to award very dubious roths, in fact Sunlight Sky Roths and some others, as roths... which changes everything. When those plants reach the US, 35-40cm roths with 8-9cm dorsal will be the new award norm.

This said, I prefer a smaller flower with a perfect shape and color, than an huge one with poor color and/or shape...

In the meantime, I am very happy of the situation, some very famous Taiwanese roths, including awarded ones are available for cheap

I don’t know whether the measurement method of the DS for AOS has aligned with Taiwanese societies or not. Be reminded that Taiwanese society measures the DS from the left most point of the dorsal to the right most point of the dorsal in STRAIGHT LINE, while AOS measures the same by a curve line over the dorsal. i.e. the measurement on the same by using AOS standard will be bigger than that measured by Taiwanese society.

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Tony]

I don’t know whether the measurement method of the DS for AOS has aligned with Taiwanese societies or not. Be reminded that Taiwanese society measures the DS from the left most point of the dorsal to the right most point of the dorsal in STRAIGHT LINE, while AOS measures the same by a curve line over the dorsal. i.e. the measurement on the same by using AOS standard will be bigger than that measured by Taiwanese society.

Correct me if I am wrong.

That is correct, at least by the AOS judging manual. I've seen it done both ways at judging.

 

[Roth]

I don’t know whether the measurement method of the DS for AOS has aligned with Taiwanese societies or not. Be reminded that Taiwanese society measures the DS from the left most point of the dorsal to the right most point of the dorsal in STRAIGHT LINE, while AOS measures the same by a curve line over the dorsal. i.e. the measurement on the same by using AOS standard will be bigger than that measured by Taiwanese society.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Apparently both are done... in Taiwan indeed they tend to measure the flat dorsal ( I do the same...).

But I was mentioning the flowerspan vs. the petals. At most, the flower size can be 2x the petal size, never more. In the AOS description, the flower size is bigger than the petals, which is impossible... Even if the petals were perfectly horizontal.

 

[Roth]

Your comment is valid so that we need to know the parents before buying. Of course, whether the seller will tell you the truth is a question, in particular for some of those Taiwanese sellers expertise on overseas market. Anyway, buying from a reputable seller for a true rothschildianum will give you more guarantee.

BTW, I had attended a gathering organized by paph hobbyist in Taiwan in late April and the roths displayed by the top cultivators in the gathering are really mad, and I think none of them are hybrid by looking at their traits.

During the gathering, we had also exchanged views on the grading system between AOS and TPS/TOGA, and we generally agreed that the scale for grading paphs, in particular for multi floral paphs are much more strict for Taiwanese organizations.

Also, size of the flower is one of the important determinant factors for the score, but they also look for the balance and coloration of the flower for granting high score. Roths flower with “big head” will definitely not score a high mark.

One of the problem, having traded a lot with the Taiwanese, is that it was and is common practice between most of the growers to exchange batches, and even rename the same cultivar/cross by grower.

As an example
AP-139 “Lion king” x NTP-266 “Six”

is in truth from Shen-Liu, TN-Lion King x TN-SixFay

So it is very complicated to know what's what...

One of the problem is that as of now, it is very difficult to know if a roth is pure or not by looking at it, and I expect it will be increasingly so...
Something like that:



could be easily passed a a very big roth...