Neofinetia ranking question(s)

[myxodex]

Very interesting discussion. The comments above about species variation chime with me. Just take a look at the taxonomic nightmare presented by the cichlid fishes of lake Malawi. I wonder how easy it is to find Neo's in the wild these days and what sort of variation exists. I have to wonder whether the bean leaf types and the pine needle types are adaptations to different micro climates. For example the bean leaf varieties tend not to loose their lower leaves as readily and have thicker leaves thus lowering the surface area to volume ratio ... adaptation to relatively drier conditions possibly? It is probably genetically simpler for leaf variagation to arise, possibly single locus mutations appearing during cultivation and I cannot imagine any advantage in this for a wild plant, but who knows? Do we know of what variation existed out there in the Edo period when people started collecting these ?

 

[Lanmark]

It is probably genetically simpler for leaf variagation to arise, possibly single locus mutations appearing during cultivation

Yes, a single 'Nishidemiyako' plant can sport baby plants with a number of distinctly different mutations, and each is given a name, like 'Manazuru' , 'Tamazuru' , and 'Tamanishiki' for example.

Do we know of what variation existed out there in the Edo period when people started collecting these ?

'Seikai' is a very, very old variety (300+ years) which was most likely originally collected in the wild.

 

[KyushuCalanthe]

I wonder how easy it is to find Neo's in the wild these days and what sort of variation exists.

Locally they are nearly extinct. With the exception of perhaps a few islands, these babies are nearly collected out in most areas of Japan. Some local guys told me that 30 years ago they knew a couple mountains that had good populations, but now plants exist only way up in the canopies anymore (20-30 meters up!) because all the lower plants have been collected. Entire businesses were run on collected material, but in Japan at least those days are over.

Do we know of what variation existed out there in the Edo period when people started collecting these ?

I can't speak for Edo times, but it is said that finding an unusual variety in the wild even back 30 years ago was difficult - very rare. Certainly the choices in those days must have been much greater. The same holds true for other collectibles like Cymbidium kanran and C. goeringii, Dendrobium moniliforme, all the wild Calanthe species and hybrids, and even Cypripedium macranthos. Still, even now plants are being found that are special. I know of a Cym. goeringii collected just last year with a pure yellow flower that sold for $800 US. Pickings are getting mighty slim though these days.

 

[huiray]

...<snip>... It is probably genetically simpler for leaf variagation to arise, possibly single locus mutations appearing during cultivation ...<snip>

Yes, a single 'Nishidemiyako' plant can sport baby plants with a number of distinctly different mutations, and each is given a name, like 'Manazuru' , 'Tamazuru' , and 'Tamanishiki' for example.

My understanding is that the morphs should be separated from the mother plant and grown on and if they themselves then give rise to a pup of the same pattern then they are considered to have stabilized and can properly be given a new name and be submitted for judging. (Submission for judging and registration when you have three individual plants of the same consistent pattern)

I can't speak for Edo times, but it is said that finding an unusual variety in the wild even back 30 years ago was difficult - very rare. Certainly the choices in those days must have been much greater. The same holds true for other collectibles like Cymbidium kanran and C. goeringii, Dendrobium moniliforme, all the wild Calanthe species and hybrids, and even Cypripedium macranthos. Still, even now plants are being found that are special. I know of a Cym. goeringii collected just last year with a pure yellow flower that sold for $800 US. Pickings are getting mighty slim though these days.

It seems that nowadays most varieties (other than hybrids) arise from either the morphs discussed above, or from mutations in the seedling populations from selfings, or from crosses between "recognized varieties" (notwithstanding the uncertainties alluded to previously) of the species. Mutations from a selfing are said to be about 1 in 100,000 (see old thread referred to below) so there are a lot of plants to go through, and a lot of time involved.

One example of a mutation is the variety SEKIREI (鶺鴒), arising from an OOTAKAMARU (大鷹丸) seedling population. Here's one plant: http://blog.goo.ne.jp/fuuranzannmai/e/062af758d0c31cfc097449f40fb957a9 This variety was pretty expensive but is coming down in price. It is not registered on the Meikan.

One example of a cross between "recognized species varieties" is the one between BENIKUJAKU (紅孔雀)(registered variety) and YODONOMATSU (淀の松)(registered variety) which has given rise, as I understand it, to the variety BENIMUSOU (紅無双) amongst others...[MUSOUMARU? (無双丸)] etc etc. These new varieties are not registered.

Here's an informative old thread with Jason Fischer's input: http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1242

 

[Linh]

most varieties (other than hybrids) arise from either the morphs discussed above, or from mutations in the seedling populations from selfings, or from crosses between "recognized varieties" (notwithstanding the uncertainties alluded to previously) of the species. Mutations from a selfing are said to be about 1 in 100,000 (see old thread referred to below) so there are a lot of plants to go through, and a lot of time involved.

Uhh huh! This is exactly what I'm hoping for! My Kuro Shinjyu is selfed in hopes for that very slim chance that I'll get a miniature, variegated bean leaf from it. Oh a woman can only dream...:clap:

 

[huiray]

One example of a mutation is the variety SEKIREI (鶺鴒), arising from an OOTAKAMARU (大鷹丸) seedling population.

Correction: The above was what I was originally told by a Japanese dealer. It turns out upon further inquiry that this variety (Sekirei) actually arose from a mutation of KAIOUMARU, itself arising from a mutation of the Amami form. The Sekirei-type form of Ootakamaru is a variety called Ootaka-no-yuki.