Neofinetia ranking question(s)

[Linh]

Yes, the Meikan you show in your pic is the current year's Meikan. The way to tell for any of them (and for other 'official' Japanese documents) is to look for the year-of-reign designation on it. The pic you took cut out the borders/margins, but if you look again at your actual Meikan you will see in the top right margin, starting from the top, 平成 = Heisei (the era name of the current emperor Akihito) followed by the kanji for twenty-two. This is year Heisei 22 = 2010. (a useful explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heisei_period) [Yes, I am looking at my copy of the Meikan]

BTW the left margin of a Meikan gives valuable info - the varieties that were accepted for registration that year (three for 2010) and which will therefore appear at the right end of the second row in the following year's Meikan, enclosed in purple-lined boxes within the row. (So the three you see in the purple-lined boxes in this year's (2010) Meikan were in the left margin of last year's (2009) Meikan. Since you say you have last year's Meikan, do take a look and compare the two.

Yes, I do see it now. Interesting, thanks for explanation, Ray.

 

[Linh]

Are you planning to sell your car? Can't touch one of these in Japan for less than $2000-$3000 for a 2-3 growth plant!

Tom, Lanmark or Ray, or anybody who might know....

Do you guys know any neo vendors located in central Japan? I know Seed Engei has plants but does anybody have names of other sellers?

 

[huiray]

Tom, Lanmark or Ray, or anybody who might know....

Do you guys know any neo vendors located in central Japan? I know Seed Engei has plants but does anybody have names of other sellers?

http://www.fuukiran.net/
and here's the google-translated version:
http://translate.googleusercontent....le.com&usg=ALkJrhhJesF7M6shayR14ZsigCof4sFC5w
Most of them are in the Tokyo-Osaka region/corridor (incld Shizuoka prefecture, between Tokyo and Osaka, where Seedengei and Sakurai are).

 

[huiray]

(snip)

BTW the left margin of a Meikan gives valuable info - the varieties that were accepted for registration that year (three for 2010) and which will therefore appear at the right end of the second row in the following year's Meikan, enclosed in purple-lined boxes within the row. (So the three you see in the purple-lined boxes in this year's (2010) Meikan were in the left margin of last year's (2009) Meikan. Since you say you have last year's Meikan, do take a look and compare the two.

Here are pics of the three varieties accepted last year, shown in purple-lined boxes on the right of the second row of the 2010 Meikan:
On far right: getsurin (月輪) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/image/shintouroku2/21nendo/getsurin.jpg
second from right: kirinju (麒麟樹) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/image/shintouroku2/21nendo/kirinju.jpg
third from right: shunrai (春雷) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/image/shintouroku2/21nendo/shunrai.jpg

...and here are pics of the three varieties registered in 2008, appearing in purple-lined boxes in the 2009 Meikan; since then one (金剛宝) was moved into the top row, the other two moved into the current second row:
On right of 2nd row (2009 Meikan), now at left of 1st row (2010 Meikan): kongouhou (金剛宝) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/image/shintouroku2/20nendo/kongouhou.jpg
Second from right of 2nd row (2009 Meikan), now 6th from right of 2nd row (2010 Meikan): tensen (天仙) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/image/shintouroku2/20nendo/tensen.jpg
Third from right of 2nd row (2009 Meikan), now 7th from right of 2nd row (2010 Meikan): surugabotan (駿河牡丹) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/image/shintouroku2/20nendo/surugabotan.jpg

 

[Linh]

Here are pics of the three varieties accepted last year, shown in purple-lined boxes on the right of the second row of the 2010 Meikan:
On far right: getsurin (月輪) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/imag...o/getsurin.jpg
second from right: kirinju (麒麟樹) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/imag...do/kirinju.jpg
third from right: shunrai (春雷) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/imag...do/shunrai.jpg

I can't see the photos, Ray. It says "404 error not found".

 

[huiray]

Linh, fixed the links (removed the ... the application here put into the urls, and put in the full paths). Try them now.

 

[Linh]

Linh, fixed the links (removed the ... the application here put into the urls, and put in the full paths). Try them now.

Oooh, nice! I like Kirinju.:smitten: Thanks, Ray.

 

[Lanmark]

Here are pics of the three varieties accepted last year, shown in purple-lined boxes on the right of the second row of the 2010 Meikan:
On far right: getsurin (月輪) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/image/shintouroku2/21nendo/getsurin.jpg
second from right: kirinju (麒麟樹) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/image/shintouroku2/21nendo/kirinju.jpg
third from right: shunrai (春雷) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/image/shintouroku2/21nendo/shunrai.jpg

...and here are pics of the three varieties registered in 2008, appearing in purple-lined boxes in the 2009 Meikan; since then one (金剛宝) was moved into the top row, the other two moved into the current second row:
On right of 2nd row (2009 Meikan), now at left of 1st row (2010 Meikan): kongouhou (金剛宝) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/image/shintouroku2/20nendo/kongouhou.jpg
Second from right of 2nd row (2009 Meikan), now 6th from right of 2nd row (2010 Meikan): tensen (天仙) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/image/shintouroku2/20nendo/tensen.jpg
Third from right of 2nd row (2009 Meikan), now 7th from right of 2nd row (2010 Meikan): surugabotan (駿河牡丹) http://www.nihonfuukirankai.com/image/shintouroku2/20nendo/surugabotan.jpg

I'm currently in a position to accept one or more of each of these varieties as gifts from anyone wanting to give. Just contact me when you're ready. :rollhappy:

 

[NYEric]

No problem! Where's your first-born?! :evil:

 

[John Boy]

I would be generous enough to volunteer too!!!

I’m still blown to bits with the wealth of knowledge I keep finding relating to Neo’s within this forum. Thank you all!!!...for that.
As you by now know I’m in Europe, which (as far as I’m aware) is Neo-Dessert-/Hell-/Mars is probably nearer, than anything Neo-related. Apart from one very committed Ebay seller within the U.K., Europe is sort of in the dark ages, when it comes to Neofinetia altogether.

I have been involved with orchids for most of my life, which sums up to nearly 37 years of orchid-mania. But this Neofinetia business these days, adds an altogether other dimension to it. As some of you might know, I also run a small lab (when I can), so every orchid I come across I view from a breeding perspective. Again: Neofinetia is a complete mystery to me. I view an Orchid from my Western European perspective, and just to sound very very stupid on this occasion, I can’t help but ask: are all these so-called Neofinetia falcata all Neofinetia falcata? Botanically speaking I have HUGE difficulties accepting that all this variation comes under one species. I know that to someone within the depths of the matter that might sound troublesome questioning. I don’t want to trouble anyone. I just want to learn whatever there is to learn. Are all these bean-leaf, and red roots, all these tiger-leafs and purple spur plants one and the same thing? What will I get, if I bred the tiniest of bean-leaf plants to the tallest of tiger-leaf plants I can find? Are these individual groups stable when it comes to breeding? I’m so ignorant when it comes to Neos, and I’d so much love to understand what I see, and come across… I can (and have been) design(ing) entire breeding programs for Cattleya’s, Paphio’s and Phal’s, and I’m quite at home with anything new that comes from Brazil at this moment in time… Neofinetia is a mystery to me. And I don’t like that.

???

 

[Lanmark]

I can’t help but ask: are all these so-called Neofinetia falcata all Neofinetia falcata? Botanically speaking I have HUGE difficulties accepting that all this variation comes under one species.

Yes, for the most part, all this variation comes under one species. The yellows are proving to be an exception. Apparently there is some Ascocentrum in the yellows. Some of the dark solid pink varieties like Beniotome, Fujimusume and Kouyou are hybrids as well. The rest are simply the results of collection from nature, mutation and careful selection and breeding over a period of several hundred years.

Glenn from NWO travels to UK every June and takes with him pre-ordered plants which he can ship to European destinations. The minimum order is something like $100usd I believe.

 

[John Boy]

Yeah, I know Glenn quite well, and I have to admit…I mostly did abuse him to bring back yellow Sophronitis for me from Japan to the UK. But I will have to start buying Neos from him too. I believe the Ebay seller I mentioned sells his plants as well.
Would you say that Neos are a Taxonomist nightmare, or are they all too much of a chicken, to touch the subject? Not that it matters to me, but the width of variation is somewhat unusual to be left alone. Find a Cattleya aclandiae which has 2 more dots than any other aclandiae, and “they” will make it a new species over night!!! I doubt that anyone in Japan would accept “any interference” anyhow, and I regard that as a good thing, but to understand this falcata issue with having in mind that the majority of us haven’t got a Japanese Mind-Set…. makes it even more difficult to come to grips with the enormity of falacata’s complexity, not to mention the naming of all theses cultivars, which I will be a lost case at, for the next few 000years.

 

[KyushuCalanthe]

Would you say that Neos are a Taxonomist nightmare, or are they all too much of a chicken, to touch the subject? Not that it matters to me, but the width of variation is somewhat unusual to be left alone. Find a Cattleya aclandiae which has 2 more dots than any other aclandiae, and “they” will make it a new species over night!!! I doubt that anyone in Japan would accept “any interference” anyhow, and I regard that as a good thing, but to understand this falcata issue with having in mind that the majority of us haven’t got a Japanese Mind-Set…. makes it even more difficult to come to grips with the enormity of falacata’s complexity, not to mention the naming of all theses cultivars, which I will be a lost case at, for the next few 000years.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, they do that with just about any collectible plant here. They delight in choosing a plant and trying to make as many variations of it as possible (not all are lovely either). It indeed is part of the "Japanese mindset". I can't say that I have that mindset, but I have partaken in in collecting some of these variations. No doubt that some of the variation isn't exactly on the up and up all the time - but mums the word.

 

[Lanmark]

I would definitely say Neos are a taxonomist's nightmare, or maybe better yet, a plant geneticist's nightmare. :rollhappy: A good example of the instability and variability of the species, however, can be found in the variety 'Nishidemiyako'. Grow this variety well and grow it long enough and chances are one or more of your plants will eventually sport a keiki with a mutation which is a highly valued variety known as 'Manazuru' -- something a lot of Neo growers dream of having happen with their 'Nishidemiyako' plants! :drool: Another highly variable plant is 'Kinbotan' which is one of its qualities which makes it quite valuable. I suspect and have heard it said that environmental conditions as well as certain external influences such as [symbiotic?] fungi and perhaps even non-disease-causing viruses may play a role in some of these mutations. I think there are a lot of things we don't yet fully understand about genetic drift.

 

[huiray]

Genetic variability is not that uncommon...in the animal world consider: a) a blond, blue-eyed Swede; b) a curly-haired dark-skinned Nigerian; c) a slant-eyed brown-haired yellow-skinned Chinese/Japanese; d) a pitch-black skinned Nubian...
I believe they are all considered members of the same species, yes?

Perhaps it is taxonomists in the Western Tradition peering at the plant kingdom who tend more to be splitters?

With Neos the source of this variability between varieties is not completely understood, as Lanmark has suggested...

In the context of the current discussion there is perhaps another benefit of paying a little attention to the Fuukiran Meikan - all the varieties on the chart are considered varieties of a single species, Neofinetia falcata, at least by the authorities of the Japanese Fuukiran Society. Hybrids would never make it onto the chart under historical and current practice as I understand it. Apart from the yellow-flowered "Neos", there are indeed many hybrids that have been and are being made between Neos and something else, as Lanmark and Kyushu Calanthe have mentioned, even though they may be considered as "Fuukiran" in the horticultural sense. I think it is generally true that reputable growers/suppliers of fuukiran plants would immediately tell you if something is a hybrid, if they knew it to be so. That has certainly been true with a grower/supplier that I deal with occasionally in Japan. Within Japan and the fuukiran-growing community there, I would expect that it would be commonly known which ones are hybrids and which ones are considered species. (Kyushu Calanthe, would this be true in your view?)

Here's an old thread by Jason Fischer regarding yellow-flowered Neos: http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1307

 

[SlipperFan]

Genetic variability is not that uncommon...in the animal world consider: a) a blond, blue-eyed Swede; b) a curly-haired dark-skinned Nigerian; c) a slant-eyed brown-haired yellow-skinned Chinese/Japanese; d) a pitch-black skinned Nubian...
I believe they are all considered members of the same species, yes?

Perhaps it is taxonomists in the Western Tradition peering at the plant kingdom who tend more to be splitters?

Good point!

 

[KyushuCalanthe]

Within Japan and the fuukiran-growing community there, I would expect that it would be commonly known which ones are hybrids and which ones are considered species. (Kyushu Calanthe, would this be true in your view?)

I refer to Jason's thorough approach in the above mentioned thread. Lots of money tied up in fuukiran, so you'll have to excuse me, but I trust almost no one concerning the "reality" of any given plant. Some are obvious hybrids and are claimed to be such, while others are much harder to discern and will remain in that no man's land - except in the minds of those who "found" them or more likely created them.

BTW, I am really just an outsider living in Japan and so have little inside knowledge (well, I have some confidants), so take everything I say with a pound of salt.

 

[Lanmark]

Hehehe you are smart and skeptical, Tom. I am a firm believer in the purity of certain varieties such as 'Seikai' , 'Mangetsu' , 'Suminagashi' , 'Mikado' etc.

 

[KyushuCalanthe]

Hehehe you are smart and skeptical, Tom. I am a firm believer in the purity of certain varieties such as 'Seikai' , 'Mangetsu' , 'Suminagashi' , 'Mikado' etc.

Hey! Don't get me wrong, I do believe many are the real thing, but some I wonder about - a clear example would be 'Hisui' - not so much because of the flowers, but the plant isn't quite right. One grower I know swears that none of the purple/pink flowers are pure Neofinetia - not that I agree with him about all varieties, but some do look suspect to me.

 

[Lanmark]

Hey! Don't get me wrong, I do believe many are the real thing, but some I wonder about - a clear example would be 'Hisui' - not so much because of the flowers, but the plant isn't quite right. One grower I know swears that none of the purple/pink flowers are pure Neofinetia - not that I agree with him about all varieties, but some do look suspect to me.

Oh, I'm not getting you wrong. Our ideas are actually quite similar. I've also wondered about 'Hisui'. The plant looks all wrong to me. 'Tosamidori', on the other hand, looks legit to my eye, but I haven't completely made up my mind just yet. Mine's in bud now; I'll be posting photos when it blooms. Some of the pinks are definitely not pure, such as 'Beniotome' and 'Kouyou' so it stands to reason that some of the other pinks have been influenced by outside genepools as well. Some of the pinks, however, I really do believe are untainted. Taking the time to observe the entire plant from root tips to leaf tips and everything inbetween (including the central stem, overall plant form, leaf: attitude, retention and attrition, root: girth, surface texture and behavior, overall plant vigor, tissue pigmentations, all aspects of the flower and length of spur etc) will yield a lot of clues. Mostly I just pick the varieties I like best and enjoy them.