What is the best roth cross?

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Hello everyone!!! I am looking for a new paph rothchildianum and wanted to know what is the best cross I can get? I have been looking at orchid inn and saw some raptor and Tarantula crosses. Size is the main priority and color can have some give. I know that price usually is a good indicator, from a reliable source, on how good the cross is but I thought I would ask the forum. Also if anyone has some recommendations on long pedal paphs I am all ears.
Happy growing!!!
 
Unless you're going to raise a whole flask, there really isn't a "best cross to get." If it's a good one you're after, I suggest watching Ebay and buying a select one when they come up. You'll spend twice as much money buying & blooming seedlings in your quest for one good one.
 
Unless you're going to raise a whole flask, there really isn't a "best cross to get." If it's a good one you're after, I suggest watching Ebay and buying a select one when they come up. You'll spend twice as much money buying & blooming seedlings in your quest for one good one.
When you say to wait for one do you mean if it is in bloom, or like if it is on orchid inn and says the exact cross? I am planing to buy one that is near blooming or in bloom
 
This is a tough question unique to rothschildianum given the fact that it has been intensely sibbed for 4-5 generations now (and a few prior on a lesser scale in highly skilled hands) and continues to advance in quality and garner awards at the highest level. I do not know if it is the most awarded species of all time- but if not, it surely is in the top 10.

That said, there are diminishing returns on a relative basis. Your average roth is far better than 20 years ago (in large part just for blooming on a regular basis- or at all- in the first place), but plants of the highest quality are fewer in number as the bar is set ever higher each year.

Point being- if you just want a really nice roth, then I think buying any of a number of the better crosses out there is going to give you good odds of a nice plant. But if you want good odds of a plant that is going to be award quality and suitable for cutting edge breeding- tnyr5 is correct that you are better off buying flasks and growing out the seedlings. This is not solely because it is more cost effective, but because demand for roth is so intense that for the best crosses flask size is sometimes your only opportunity to get the cross at all, and it is certainly your best chance to get plants that will be the most vigorous and promising. Once the better crosses get to a certain age, many breeders will keep all or most of the plants- certainly the most vigorous ones- for themselves. That is how it has always been. In flask stage, while plants certainly vary in size, it is still too soon to see which the real front-runners are going to be. I think that is best evident after a year in single pots, at the earliest.

As for selecting crosses just looking at the parent names and knowing nothing further- with the caveat that this is not a perfect way of doing it- the market places the highest value on parents which have won medals awarded by JOGA, followed by AOS awards. But again- this is a very fast moving world and not everyone can get a prized roth to Tokyo in perfect bloom for evaluation, or indeed the US. German breeding lines of roth are very highly regarded- but for obvious geographic reasons top clones do not often bear JOGA medals or AOS awards. So it is not uncommon for a very cutting edge cultivar to not have been awarded.

Your best bet is to find a highly respected breeder/retailer you can trust and ask them to suggest crosses based on your goals (do you want most to see a big dorsal, longer petals, reliable blooming, dark color? etc.) and then buy several plants. Ask for or select crosses that are newest to market, and buy the largest size available. Quantity is up to you, but if you really want to get an exceptional plant- then you really need 5-10 plants each of a few recent crosses to best your odds.

All IMHO- an educated opinion I like to think, but an opinion nonethless on a very good and complex question.

On specific crosses- I bought some of the $200 World Cup x Raptor plants from Orchid Inn a couple of years ago. Sold most of them but the 2 I kept bloomed with 15 inch leaf spans. Even blooming that young, the flowers were not good enough for me to keep them (for a plant that big, I want AM potential or better or a very unique quality for breeding)- but they were certainly very easy to flower and well above average qualitatively. If you can still get them- go for big plants at this point- a worthwhile cross.

The most "cutting edge" roths I have in bud right now are 'Black Eagle' x 'Knight Challenge' SM/JOGA (in a personal capacity- not in my sometimes dealer/retailer capacity), and while it was an educated guess to go for them, it is a cross now reaching flowering size I would seek out if you can find it. (And unlike the cross above, these are budded at a more customary size).

If you are willing to consider flasks and small seedlings, look for 'Giant Perfection' (not yet awarded to my knowledge) as a parent. Again- a guess on my part, but I really like the potential there. Fingers crossed.
 
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This is a tough question unique to rothschildianum given the fact that it has been intensely sibbed for 4-5 generations now (and a few prior on a lesser scale in highly skilled hands) and continues to advance in quality and garner awards at the highest level. I do not know if it is the most awarded species of all time- but if not, it surely is in the top 10.

That said, there are diminishing returns on a relative basis. Your average roth is far better than 20 years ago (in large part just for blooming on a regular basis- or at all- in the first place), but plants of the highest quality are fewer in number as the bar is set ever higher each year.

Point being- if you just want a really nice roth, then I think buying any of a number of the better crosses out there is going to give you good odds of a nice plant. But if you want good odds of a plant that is going to be award quality and suitable for cutting edge breeding- tnyr5 is correct that you are better off buying flasks and growing out the seedlings. This is not solely because it is more cost effective, but because demand for roth is so intense that for the best crosses flask size is sometimes your only opportunity to get the cross at all, and it is certainly your best chance to get plants that will be the most vigorous and promising. Once the better crosses get to a certain age, many breeders will keep all or most of the plants- certainly the most vigorous ones- for themselves. That is how it has always been. In flask stage, while plants certainly vary in size, it is still too soon to see which the real front-runners are going to be. I think that is best evident after a year in single pots, at the earliest.

As for selecting crosses just looking at the parent names and knowing nothing further- with the caveat that this is not a perfect way of doing it- the market places the highest value on parents which have won medals awarded by JOGA, followed by AOS awards. But again- this is a very fast moving world and not everyone can get a prized roth to Tokyo in perfect bloom for evaluation, or indeed the US. German breeding lines of roth are very highly regarded- but for obvious geographic reasons top clones do not often bear JOGA medals or AOS awards.

Your best bet is to find a highly respected breeder/retailer you can trust and ask them to suggest crosses based on your goals (do you want most to see a big dorsal, longer petals, reliable blooming, dark color? etc.) and then buy several plants. Ask for or select crosses that are newest to market, and buy the largest size available. Quantity is up to you, but if you really want to get an exceptional plant- then you really need 5-10 plants each of a few recent crosses to best your odds.

All IMHO- an educated opinion I like to think, but an opinion nonethless on a very good and complex question.
Thank you so much!!! If you kept going you could have made a book and gotten it published, which I would totally buy ;). All jokes aside this is some really great information. I am not getting it for judging but rather for personal satisfaction. I don't really have the patience to wait for a flask to mature: Isn't it like 6-plus years till flowering? Also, I don't have the financial backing to buy tons of roths to get a perfect one. I was thinking of getting a good cross from orchid inn and hoping for the best. In your opinion would you buy multiple small plants or just go for a high end blooming size one? Also these are the crosses I'm looking at and what would you think the best one would be?


Paph. rothschildianum x sib ('Knight Sunshine' SM/JOGA x 'Tarantula' GM/JGP)

Paph. rothschildianum x sib ('World Cup' SM/JOGA x 'Raptor' GM/JOGA)

Paph. rothschildianum x sib ('New Horizon' FCC/AOS x 'Raptor' GM/JOGA)

Paph. rothschildianum x sib ('Fine Five' x 'Atticus' AM/AOS, B/WOC)

Paph. rothschildianum x sib ('Black Beauty' x 'Giant Wings' GM/WOC)

 
This is a tough question unique to rothschildianum given the fact that it has been intensely sibbed for 4-5 generations now (and a few prior on a lesser scale in highly skilled hands) and continues to advance in quality and garner awards at the highest level. I do not know if it is the most awarded species of all time- but if not, it surely is in the top 10.

That said, there are diminishing returns on a relative basis. Your average roth is far better than 20 years ago (in large part just for blooming on a regular basis- or at all- in the first place), but plants of the highest quality are fewer in number as the bar is set ever higher each year.

Point being- if you just want a really nice roth, then I think buying any of a number of the better crosses out there is going to give you good odds of a nice plant. But if you want good odds of a plant that is going to be award quality and suitable for cutting edge breeding- tnyr5 is correct that you are better off buying flasks and growing out the seedlings. This is not solely because it is more cost effective, but because demand for roth is so intense that for the best crosses flask size is sometimes your only opportunity to get the cross at all, and it is certainly your best chance to get plants that will be the most vigorous and promising. Once the better crosses get to a certain age, many breeders will keep all or most of the plants- certainly the most vigorous ones- for themselves. That is how it has always been. In flask stage, while plants certainly vary in size, it is still too soon to see which the real front-runners are going to be. I think that is best evident after a year in single pots, at the earliest.

As for selecting crosses just looking at the parent names and knowing nothing further- with the caveat that this is not a perfect way of doing it- the market places the highest value on parents which have won medals awarded by JOGA, followed by AOS awards. But again- this is a very fast moving world and not everyone can get a prized roth to Tokyo in perfect bloom for evaluation, or indeed the US. German breeding lines of roth are very highly regarded- but for obvious geographic reasons top clones do not often bear JOGA medals or AOS awards. So it is not uncommon for a very cutting edge cultivar to not have been awarded.

Your best bet is to find a highly respected breeder/retailer you can trust and ask them to suggest crosses based on your goals (do you want most to see a big dorsal, longer petals, reliable blooming, dark color? etc.) and then buy several plants. Ask for or select crosses that are newest to market, and buy the largest size available. Quantity is up to you, but if you really want to get an exceptional plant- then you really need 5-10 plants each of a few recent crosses to best your odds.

All IMHO- an educated opinion I like to think, but an opinion nonethless on a very good and complex question.

On specific crosses- I bought some of the $200 World Cup x Raptor plants from Orchid Inn a couple of years ago. Sold most of them but the 2 I kept bloomed with 15 inch leaf spans. Even blooming that young, the flowers were not good enough for me to keep them (for a plant that big, I want AM potential or better or a very unique quality for breeding)- but they were certainly very easy to flower and well above average qualitatively. If you can still get them- go for big plants at this point- a worthwhile cross.

The most "cutting edge" roths I have in bud right now are 'Black Eagle' x 'Knight Challenge' SM/JOGA (in a personal capacity- not in my sometimes dealer/retailer capacity), and while it was an educated guess to go for them, it is a cross now reaching flowering size I would seek out if you can find it. (And unlike the cross above, these are budded at a more customary size).

If you are willing to consider flasks and small seedlings, look for 'Giant Perfection' (not yet awarded to my knowledge) as a parent. Again- a guess on my part, but I really like the potential there. Fingers crossed.
sorry, i did not see the specific crosses listed below, half of it I could not see. I tried to find the crosses but could not that you mentioned. About the world cup x raptor I did find that one. I was going to buy that one maybe but do you thinkif I bloomed it a couple of times I could get really big flowers? thanks
 
In your opinion would you buy multiple small plants or just go for a high end blooming size one? Also these are the crosses I'm looking at and what would you think the best one would be?
It really all depends on the pricing, but generally speaking if I were actively seeking a roth cross to bloom out and wanted the best combination of time frame and price (and availability), then I would probably go for plants with a 24-30cm leaf span. The world is awash with rothschildianum these days, and so as plants get older I have not found the price goes up all that much until they are blooming sized (but then in bud it rockets up quite a bit.) The only question is finding the best crosses in that size or larger.
This is the one I would be most keen to try. I actually bought several of these a couple of years ago with the hopes of being able to keep a few of them for myself- but they vanished in just one guest lecture plant sale and a show as I underestimated the demand for plants in a post-COVID world (and also in the aftermath of the 2021 freeze that cost many Texans their entire greenhouses.)

Note that Orchid Inn is in the process of closing down. I am not sure which of these crosses he still has left, but best to reach out sooner than later to confirm.

Also, when I bloom out the few I have- I am only going to keep one if it is standard-setting (in terms of coloration if not size), and so if there is one not quite what I want for future breeding but stil very much above average and something you like, you are welcome to it for the cost of a mature seedling or in trade. I have a steady local market of my discards of blooming Cattleya and Dendrobium seedlings- but for something like roth I usually trade good ones to fellow collectors or donate to orchid society auctions. They are an acquired taste it would seem.
 
Can someone tell us where the 'Jordon Winter' FCC/AOS owned by Krull Smith orchids originated?
It has to be among my favorite roths!!
 
I would like to suggest one thing to you. If you buy a seedling cross, unbloomed, you can usually figure on getting a nice Roth.! Why would any breeder/hybridizer cross an ugly one?!?!?!? Honestly too, how many bad Roth’s. have you ever seen? It can’t be many.
Buying sight unseen, get a seedling of two FCC parents. You would just have to figure that quality genes abound.
But if you must have a really GREAT ONE, buy it in bloom!!!
 
I would like to suggest one thing to you. If you buy a seedling cross, unbloomed, you can usually figure on getting a nice Roth.! Why would any breeder/hybridizer cross an ugly one?!?!?!? Honestly too, how many bad Roth’s. have you ever seen? It can’t be many.
Buying sight unseen, get a seedling of two FCC parents. You would just have to figure that quality genes abound.
But if you must have a really GREAT ONE, buy it in bloom!!!

Look at my Paph season thread from last year for some bad roths, even from FCC/GM parents lol
 
I know, I realize that there might be a few non beauties around but I love each and every rothschildianum! In my mind, it is the “King of Orchids”!
Not each and every King is handsome. Look at King Charles of England. I am sure his mommy loved him. 😜🤪😛
 
Look at my Paph season thread from last year for some bad roths, even from FCC/GM parents lol
Exactly.
It's mostly sales pitch. There sure exists higher potentials but how many actually turn out to live up to the potential?
Not that many at all.
 
I rarely post here anymore, but anyway.....

For the roths, yes a good pedigree will give mostly very good plants in bloom, I have bloomed stockpiles of rothschildianum over the years...

As for quite a lot of those roths with prestigious JOGA AOS parents, where even the leaf type does not match the parents, nothing in the flower matches the parents, never, in none of the plants bloomed.

It can be that it is a big lottery blah blah blah or grow the plant better. That's just a flat excuse to say that the flower is crap, the plant is crap, and it was sold, knowingly, with a wrong pedigree label. But it might be plausible, depending on who sells them

It is more than certainly because the only use of those prestigious parents was to print tags on the labels.... and the plants themselves are generic roths, with a nice pedigree written on the tag....

I have got and bloomed more than enough rothschildianum in my life and even recently, to know that a lot of the seedlings shown in flower are absolutely not from the parentage beyond any questionable doubt....

As for me, I got batches of flasks from Paph Paradise, bloomed several dozens huge plants in 3 years from flask, as I usually do for roths. There were 'less good' and some amazing ones in it. ALL without any exception showed the parents in the flowers, in a way or another. I ll post them again here

For the story 'well the newer breeding lines are much better than the old **** blah blah blah'

Jordan Winter is Charles E x Borneo, crossed back to Charles E, an amazing roth for sure.
Mt Millais is a wild collected plant originally.

Most of the seedlings with amazing parents printed on the tags cannot compare with Mt Millais, by really far, sorry to say it...
 
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Look at my Paph season thread from last year for some bad roths, even from FCC/GM parents lol

Yes because the FCC/GM were only on the tags, after all... That's a real problem, and not only with rothschildianum...
 
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