Two of the New Horizon x Raptor Xavier used above are mine and they do not in any way resemble the parents, and from what I've seen shared here and on Facebook that seems to be the norm for this cross as well as World Cup x Raptor. Of course not every plant in a grex is going to surpass the parents and/or be awardable, but when NONE of the progeny are even a decent quality bloom by modern standards that is pretty damning.
Hilo Lip is an aneuploid. Few people know that I do breed industrial pot plant Phalaenopsis as well... But when using an aneuploid plant, indeed, generation after generation, there are more and more culls appearing, either sibling the original variety, or crossing it onto others, so that is different from a pure species with a normal chromosome count, or eventually 3n, 4n 'exact'.'Raptor' crosses are definitely an outlier. I only bloomed out two - both the World Cup x Raptor and purchased as young seedlings. I wish I had taken photographs at the time, but I did not yet know of any controversy.
Ray posted one here from New Horizon x Raptor - Paph rothschildianum (New Horizon x Raptor)
My experience mirrored his- blooming on incredibly small plants with outstanding color. I remember one of mine was a bit darker than his- especially in the dorsal- and both opened a bit more, but otherwise they were about the same and with flower dimensions so small that even from that young age they were not going to mature into something remarkable. So I tossed them out and never thought more of it.
A handful of plants performing like that, even close to half, would not be unsusual to my thinking- but given the widespread disappointment with both crosses, either 'Raptor' is a really bad parent or something is amiss with the heritage of at least some of the plants. Anecdotally it would appear purchasers of flasks had better luck, and given the enormous premium 'Raptor' crosses garnered at the time- it is quite possible that the flasks are the real thing and it was an unscrupulous broker or two later in the game that chose to mislabel seedlings for the 2x premium.
While it is rare- there is some history for highly acclaimed plants being terrible breeders. Anyone remember Phal. Hilo Lip? For those who are not aware of the tale, in the 1980s when Phalaenopsis were still big with collectors, Carmela orchids bloomed out a cross - Hilo Lip - in which a handful flowered as full-sized pinks with a pure white lip. They were an immediate hit, and very quickly compots of sib crosses became available for $50 each- and this is at a time when Carmela was charging $25-30 for most of its Phal. compots. A few award winners emerged from that generation, and then it was on to the next generation of sib crosses. It was generally, and I think correctly, blamed on inbreeding (and in particular inbreeding with a heavy stuartiana influence) - but that next generation yielded terrible results. Deformed flowers, a quality level nothing like the parents and even plants that never flowered. It has happened some in the first sib crosses, but rapidly got worse. This is an extreme example- but it can happen. So maybe 'Raptor' is a bad parent?
I will readily concede that with the price of roth, there is a very good chance a lot of Raptor crosses were mislabeled at some point. But there is also the chance Raptor is a bad parent that gives a very poor result. I am pretty sure they are long gone from stocks now, but if I get any of them I will either keep them or let someone experienced who I know will not resell them bloom them out just so we can add the results to collective knowledge.
Beautiful flower, but yikes that dorsal. Have you seen many or any true roths with a dorsal that wide and relatively rounded versus elongated?
Nope, and that's the problem, there are many new 'gigantic roths' with that dorsal, very round and wide. Surprisingly it comes from stonei... and many of those roths from Taiwan with dorsals of 7 and 8cm+ are definitely this hybrid...Beautiful flower, but yikes that dorsal. Have you seen many or any true roths with a dorsal that wide and relatively rounded versus elongated?
When were Krull's Smith roths awarded, then? Their two best roths are up to the size you say here.Down petals
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Sunlight Sky Roths
Horizontal petals would be named as 35-40cm flowerspan roths, with 7-8cm dorsals. As Sunlight Sky Roths started to bloom only a couple years ago, that's why the 'gigantic roths' never appeared before..
I just saw an auction of one of them as rothschildianum, it went for over 70.000NTD, inside Taiwan.
When were Krull's Smith roths awarded, then? Their two best roths are up to the size you say here.
I'm asking because you said 'gigantic roths' never appeared before Sunlight Sky Roths started to bloom a couple of years ago.
I agree Tom…. You have put this as eloquently as this subject could possibly be stated.
Sam and Orchid Inn has been huge to the Paphiopedilum world
The figure I saw on his website said natural spread of 40cm not 29. maybe it is the other FCC clone?
Thank you for all your posts and the dialogue. It is a complicated picture and there are differences between intentions and outcomes that have to matter to me if I am going to wade back into the commercial side of things. Whatever my current or future feelings (and I think we agree in a great many respects), you have provided some great resources and ideas for monitoring and learning- and that is invaluable.Everyone is entitled to their own choice, I have explained my point of view on the subject, technically speaking, and that is it. I close the discussion here on my side.