Paph. fairrieanum 'Vinh Huy Nguyen' FCC/AOS

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John M

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The flower is very lovely but I don't understand the award. For me this flower is far away from what a 'normal' fairieanum should look like.
However, consider that a "normal" fairieanum is not an FCC quality fairieanum. Any FCC should be, by definition, "abnormal"; but, in a very good way, as in this case.

If this flower had a natural spread of 20 cm, you'd all be going bonkers about how great it is and how the 90 point FCC is a low score. The only thing "wrong" with this flower is the size; but, the size is very much in proportion to the plant, which gives an overall VERY pleasing effect. Plus, it did not get a perfect score, it lost 10 points and only got 90 points in total, just squeeking in as an FCC. Virtually everything else about this flower is perfect. The colour, form, substance, etc., is WONDERFUL....if only it was larger. So, it got recognised for all it's VERY good features and it lost points on size. This is, to me, the nicest fairieanum I've ever seen. I hope it's used to produce more just like this one so that we all can own something as nice.
 

Secundino

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Yes, I knew that the word 'normal' would imply that response ... perhaps I should have taken 'specific' - in the sense that this flower is away from the 'specific fairieanum-look'. Whatever that may be. For me this 'fairieanum-look' is wavy, curly, playful (?), with strong contrast between dark and light and violet and green. Hairy, and a bit snobbish... To me, size in flowers does not make a better flower.
 

Hugorchids

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It looks like it only has one growth? Are there any other pictures of the plant? Having just one growth with a bloom is not enough to deem it as a dwarf/miniature.
 

John M

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Really? You guys dislike it that much? Okay....maybe an FCC was a bit generous; but, whatever it's worth is really not for anyone to decide from a couple 2 dimensional photographs. I just know that it's got very nice markings and colour intensity. It's a nice, sturdy looking flower with a much more rounded shape with proportionally wider segments than a "normal" fairieanum, which to me, makes it a lot more pleasing. Regardless of the smaller size, which I happen to like anyway, I find it to be gorgeous and worthy of some sort of award recognition. After all, when judging flowers for a quality award, that's all that's supposed to be judged...the flowers, not the foliage. Once you dismiss the plant size and it's perceived health and you just look at the flower, other than being small, it's quite exceptional. I know a lot of people always want to see big flowers, bigger than previous awarded ones, if they're to be considered for an award; but, the judging rule book doesn't support that. Size is just a part of the whole score.

So, I'm interested.....those of you who think this should not have been awarded, could you please explain in more detail why you feel that way. I'm always willing to change my mind if someone comes up with a compelling and logical reason for it. Thanks!
 

PaphMadMan

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Haters gotta hate, John. I'd say it is exceptional in part because it is dwarf, and the flower is actually huge compared to the tiny plant. And the form and color certainly are exceptional too. Unless it proves to be hormonally manipulated I don't think the haters have made their case at all.
 

Fabrice

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About AOS credibility, I don't want to be unpleasant but it's not the 1st time an award is questionable... we even saw in the past hybrids judged as species. So, all is possible and AOS is not a reference for me.

This bloom is clearly specific and original. But not really in my taste, FCC or not.

And in my opinion, it will be anyway the first time and last time it blooms. Yellowish leaves, a little dehydrated, doesn't seem to have new growth. Not good for future, particularly on a miniature like that.

But it will be still and forever an FCC!:clap:
 

John M

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I must admit, I'd much rather see the stem a bit longer and the plant looking more robust. If this plant was mine, I'd probably not have had the chance to see the exceptional flower because I'd have nipped the bud off long ago in an effort to encourage the plant to do some more growing and getting stronger. Still, a cut flower is supposed to be just as good for judging as a flowering plant; so, the plant is not supposed to be part of the point score. Only the flower is supposed to be pointed....and again, other than size, this flower is fantastic.
 

Ozpaph

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'Haters' is very unfair and derogatory. No one has be nasty or spiteful. Opinions, I believe, have been politely noted.

From a down-under perspective this is unlikely to have even received an HCC. It is not an FCC flower (anywhere, IMHO) Yes, nice markings and shape but is small with no stem length. Here it might get an 'award of distinction' ie not a quality award.
An FCC is the highest award possible. It says that every thing about the flower is 'remarkable'. You cant discount the two 'major faults' and still get an FCC; not here anyway.
It was posted to generate this debate. Hence Tim's 'no comment', which speaks volumes.

I hope we can express opinions in an adult fashion and generate discussion without mud-slinging.
 

cattmad

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I must admit, I'd much rather see the stem a bit longer and the plant looking more robust. If this plant was mine, I'd probably not have had the chance to see the exceptional flower because I'd have nipped the bud off long ago in an effort to encourage the plant to do some more growing and getting stronger. Still, a cut flower is supposed to be just as good for judging as a flowering plant; so, the plant is not supposed to be part of the point score. Only the flower is supposed to be pointed....and again, other than size, this flower is fantastic.
herin lies my problem John, if you took that flower off the plant and put it up for award surely it would not get a second look, the DS is about half the current size of what the likes of OZ are breeding from so ither than very nice form and colour it is clearly inferior.

To say its exceptional for a dwarf form is yet to be proven given it is quite a poorly looking single growth plant that to me looks to have yet to have matured properly. If it was a multi-growth plant with multiple flowers this point would be totally invalid.

Why are we labelling people haters for expressing an opinion.
 

cattmad

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I must admit, I'd much rather see the stem a bit longer and the plant looking more robust. If this plant was mine, I'd probably not have had the chance to see the exceptional flower because I'd have nipped the bud off long ago in an effort to encourage the plant to do some more growing and getting stronger. Still, a cut flower is supposed to be just as good for judging as a flowering plant; so, the plant is not supposed to be part of the point score. Only the flower is supposed to be pointed....and again, other than size, this flower is fantastic.
herin lies my problem John, if you took that flower off the plant and put it up for award surely it would not get a second look, the DS is about half the current size of what the likes of OZ are breeding from so other than very nice form and colour it is clearly inferior.

To say its exceptional for a dwarf form is yet to be proven given it is quite a poorly looking single growth plant that to me looks to have yet to have matured properly. If it was a multi-growth plant with multiple flowers this point would be totally invalid.

Why are we labelling people haters for expressing an opinion.
 

MorandiWine

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This is an incredible step forward in my opinion! Surely an FFC is an indication of some forward thinking of this group of judges who can recognize that a plant like this opens the doors to a whole new group of slippers. So many people have been working on making miniature plants with a fee successes and certainly a great deal of misses. A truly dwarf plant, especially a species highly used in hybridization, would be invaluable to breeders.

If this plant was "normal sized" it would still still likely score high, perhaps not FCC but awardable.

All that being said, this is very exciting and kudos to the grower AND the judges for recognizing the uniqueness and potential this plant will bring to the industry.

Tyler

Ps. I want a division Tim!!


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John M

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Ozpaph, the term "Haters gonna hate" is used loosely....at least in North America. It really doesn't have a nasty or spiteful overtone. It's just a way of saying and resigning oneself to the fact that there will always be oposing opinions.....that you will never have everyone fall in behind you and support your opinion.

So, does stem length get pointed separately? Or, does the stem merely need to be long enough to not interfere with the flower being presented and once that is seen to have been accomplished, that statistic does not come into play any longer? It can only lose points on stem length if stem length is a characteristic that is scored.

I tend to disagree that "It [an FCC], says that every thing about the flower is 'remarkable'". Everything but size could be remarkable and the point score should reflect all that...the good and the bad......and if the average still reaches 90 points, then it is still an FCC quality flower. Theoretically, a plant could get a core of 0 for size and still get an FCC, if it gets a perfect score on everything else. I doubt this flower got much of a score for size; but, the other characteristics scored high enough to put it up to 90 points....= FCC.
 

chrismende

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The AOS judging system needs a new category for miniatures bred to be miniatures or individual cultivars valued specifically for small size vs. "larger than previously judged" dorsals or NS. Since many breeders are seriously looking for small cultivars to breed teacup Paphs, in particular, this characteristic needs to be judged as a quality unto itself. When will it occur?
 

Secundino

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Yep - it's own category, for dwarf breeding. If it was breeding at all. But than - it wouldn't be fairieanum any more.

No wonder that hate spreads as easily in north America.
This thread wasn't a joke, it's a test.
 

fibre

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All justing systems aside, IMO we can't estimate the quality of this cultivar. It seems to be a week first time blooming plant. Will the leaves stay smallish when the plant will be in a more healthy condition? Will the flower be more balanced next time? (IMO the pouch is to big, petals and dorsal are to small). I wouldn't use it for miniature breeding yet. But I'm very curious to see its next flower!
 

Ozpaph

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Ozpaph, the term "Haters gonna hate" is used loosely....at least in North America. It really doesn't have a nasty or spiteful overtone. It's just a way of saying and resigning oneself to the fact that there will always be oposing opinions.....that you will never have everyone fall in behind you and support your opinion.

So, does stem length get pointed separately? Or, does the stem merely need to be long enough to not interfere with the flower being presented and once that is seen to have been accomplished, that statistic does not come into play any longer? It can only lose points on stem length if stem length is a characteristic that is scored.

I tend to disagree that "It [an FCC], says that every thing about the flower is 'remarkable'". Everything but size could be remarkable and the point score should reflect all that...the good and the bad......and if the average still reaches 90 points, then it is still an FCC quality flower. Theoretically, a plant could get a core of 0 for size and still get an FCC, if it gets a perfect score on everything else. I doubt this flower got much of a score for size; but, the other characteristics scored high enough to put it up to 90 points....= FCC.
Thanks John. Hate is a strong word with very negative connotations. I choose not to use it casually.
Unless there is dissent from the other Aussies, that flower and plant would not be awarded here. To get an FCC here it has to be exceptional in every way. No exceptions. The stem and size would be major detractors, which I understand would 'disqualify' the flower. 'Size + stem habit + arrangement' are 33.3 points here. Shape =33.3. Colour + texture=33.3.
I dont argue that it doesn't have 'value'. It may be a true miniature and useful for breeding etc etc Lets see it bloom again.
 
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