kovachii x besseae

[isaias m rolando]

It is so sad to see nobody cares about illegal PK hybrids in the market.
INRENA-Peru-CITES has no record of any Phrag kovachii X besseae exported by Peruflora. So how do you explain all those hybrids in the market in the USA? And people buying from non registered plants sources out of Peru...
conclusions: nobody cares anymore.
sweet dreams orchids fans, sweet dreams....

 

[gonewild]

It is so sad to see nobody cares about illegal PK hybrids in the market.
INRENA-Peru-CITES has no record of any Phrag kovachii X besseae exported by Peruflora. So how do you explain all those hybrids in the market in the USA? And people buying from non registered plants sources out of Peru...
conclusions: nobody cares anymore.
sweet dreams orchids fans, sweet dreams....

Isaias, Many people here care.
Please send us a list of all the INRENA registered hybrids. How are people supposed to know what hybrids INRENA has registered and approved?

 

[Hien]

Isaias, Many people here care.
Please send us a list of all the INRENA registered hybrids. How are people supposed to know what hybrids INRENA has registered and approved?

Lance, you are too nice.
I follow this thread for a while, and see how Isaias is so angry with all of us. I want say something about the attitude, but another person advices me not to get involve and get dragged into the mud throwing.
Sorry to say that we need not to apologize to anyone nor tell anybody whether we care or not.
This sentiment of "How bad the capitalists corrupt & take advantage of the poor innocent natives" ....
As far as I see it, the Peruvian government permitted three peoples to collect & propagate the pk (how the heck, do we suppose to know the mysterious way of the peruvians conduct the business or run the country, we don't even know the mysterious way our goverment running our own country, for God ....... sake) We trust the peruvian sellers to be honest.
Now we should feel guilty that we buy from those 3 peoples licensed by the Peruvian government? WE ASSUMED THAT THEIR CATALOGS AND ADVERTISES IMPLYING THEIR APPROVED STATUS. IF NOT THE PERUVIAN SHOULD DEAL WITH THE LOCAL SOURCE,
I doubt if any buyers in the USA or Canada has access to any other sources other than CJM & Peruflora ( since Moore hasn't offered anything yet)

 

[isaias m rolando]

No HIEN!
This is not an issue "who is the bad guy". I can not be angry with "all of you". My reason to write here is to stop pressure on the wild population of PK. This is all about. I have been there last week and can inform you that there is still a good number of plants in the habitat. We would like to protect this wild population...WITH YOUR HELP.
It does not help to put coments like yours HIEN, trying to "get dragged into the mud throwing". I am only exposing facts. If you feel ofended, very sorry and my best appologies. But how can we deal with the fact that there is a bussines in the market that were CONVICTED by the US department of Justice (THIS IS NOT PERUVIAN AUTHORITIES) and that are selling illegaly exported plants in the US, or did they made the hybrid in the US with illegal PK in some nurseries?
I have followed and participated in the PK SAGA since the beguining. We knew about the existance of PK since 1990. The year they finally discovered I was "out of bussines"....my late wife was dying after a brain cancer and all 2001 and 2002 I dedicated my time (fulltime) trying to cure my wife. She finally passed away on August 30...and I took notice of PK reports late in October 2002. I organized and coordinated the first collecting and scientific PK expedition with Harold K and have all the records of what have been done with PK, including photographs and videos.
So, is this PK saga that dificult to understand? Waht is wrong with some of you guys? Don't you see there are comercial people trying to use us for their comercial purposes? Trying to denie what is of public domain? Like reports of the US department of Justice?
Please, try to be nice with a great, wonderful orchid. Help us to keep PK in a safe wild population. I am sure we all can do it...please, show some respect with NATURE, not a country, not a person, but the spectacular orchids in this planet....
Have a good day

 

[Hien]

No HIEN!
This is not an issue "who is the bad guy". I can not be angry with "all of you". My reason to write here is to stop pressure on the wild population of PK. This is all about. I have been there last week and can inform you that there is still a good number of plants in the habitat. We would like to protect this wild population...WITH YOUR HELP.
It does not help to put coments like yours HIEN, trying to "get dragged into the mud throwing". I am only exposing facts. If you feel ofended, very sorry and my best appologies. But how can we deal with the fact that there is a bussines in the market that were CONVICTED by the US department of Justice (THIS IS NOT PERUVIAN AUTHORITIES) and that are selling illegaly exported plants in the US, or did they made the hybrid in the US with illegal PK in some nurseries?
I have followed and participated in the PK SAGA since the beguining. We knew about the existance of PK since 1990. The year they finally discovered I was "out of bussines"....my late wife was dying after a brain cancer and all 2001 and 2002 I dedicated my time (fulltime) trying to cure my wife. She finally passed away on August 30...and I took notice of PK reports late in October 2002. I organized and coordinated the first collecting and scientific PK expedition with Harold K and have all the records of what have been done with PK, including photographs and videos.
So, is this PK saga that dificult to understand? Waht is wrong with some of you guys? Don't you see there are comercial people trying to use us for their comercial purposes? Trying to denie what is of public domain? Like reports of the US department of Justice?
Please, try to be nice with a great, wonderful orchid. Help us to keep PK in a safe wild population. I am sure we all can do it...please, show some respect with NATURE, not a country, not a person, but the spectacular orchids in this planet....
Have a good day

Did you say that the plants we bought from the Peruvian approved sources are not a guarantee of their legitimacy?
I have been assuming all along that as long as the flasks came from any one of the three source is OK.
I hope it is just a misinterpretation about the pk x besseae hybrid. Because Peruflora does have a cross between pk x dalessandroi (which is called besseae by some). Do they register w/ the Peruvian government a pk x dalessandroi cross?

 

[isaias m rolando]

No HIEN
Please do not put words in my writting that I have never said.
What I am saying is that there are plants in the market with NO REGISTRATION at INRENA. NO CITES DOCS. Meaning that they were made with illegal pollen out of Peru or that the flasks or seedlings were exported agaisnt CITES regulations.

CJM has ALL his Phrag hybrids (mother plants) importation cleared and registered at INRENA and all his hybrids with PK and flasks in the past and future had or will have CITES documents. Is this the case of the nice hybrids (PK X besseae) shown in this forum? It is sad to recognize that there are no records of Peruflora exporting these flasks or seedlings, or any registration of this particular crosse.
As for permit N 3 (Mr Lee Moore), he has not yet registered any hybrids or PK flasks to export. I have pictures of his plants showing seed pods last year. So I pressume he will be offering flasks soon.
All this information is of public domain. So if you want to know more just enter Inrena web site. Also you can visit now CJM web site to get all info you want.
Again all we want here is to reduce pressure on wild PK population. If I could change CITES regulations I will recomend INRENA themselves to export just PK pollen and to anyone interested to invest in PK hybrids to come here and set a faciltiy to export the wonderfull hybrids they could have in the future.

Have you all a good weekend.

 

[lienluu]

All this information is of public domain. So if you want to know more just enter Inrena web site.

http://www.inrena.gob.pe/index_inicio.htm

Please help direct us to where exactly that information is. I don't read spanish so it's difficult for me to navigate.

Thanks!

 

[isaias m rolando]

Lienluu
Thank you for your interest agin in this saga.
Could you please assit me again in posting more pics of PK habitat?
I have very interesting pics...

 

[lienluu]

Lienluu
Thank you for your interest agin in this saga.
Could you please assit me again in posting more pics of PK habitat?
I have very interesting pics...

You can email the photos to me at [email protected] and i can post them for you.

Lien

 

[NYEric]

That's pretty risky putting that info out there Mr. Lien!

 

[Hien]

Isaias.

Thank you for the clarification.
I think I kind of having a little bit more grasp on the complication of the issue now.
I always imagine since Peru is the country with so many phrag species naturally, they do not need to import any plants from outside to breed.
But I guess I was wrong.
I do wish the site has an english feature so everybody would understand.

 

[isaias m rolando]

Yes, Hien
Peru, as any other country under CITES has to follow these international rules. As you all know all phrags are in Appendix I or II (hybrids), so we need CITES permits to enter any phrag hybrid as any other country.
Same in the US, it is required to have CITES import papers to have PK x besseae as an appendix II orchid hybrid. Be sure the comercial grower offering those plants has a copy of the CITES docs when you purchase your plants.
Have a good weekend

 

[Kyle]

I don't know about the USA, but in Canada, we import flasks with phytosanitary only. Thats why we have all the new paph species (hanginaum, helenea, vietnamense etc.)

Kovachii hybrids could be in Canada without any sort of CITES documents with them. Still legal. Just posting FYI.

Kyle

 

[wonderlen3000]

wow. looks like besseae in steroids ...lol

 

[Greenthings]

I don't know about the USA, but in Canada, we import flasks with phytosanitary only. Thats why we have all the new paph species (hanginaum, helenea, vietnamense etc.)

Kovachii hybrids could be in Canada without any sort of CITES documents with them. Still legal. Just posting FYI.

Kyle

You are correct Kyle. Here is what the CITES Appendices say:

(Appendix-I species, seedling or tissue cultures obtained in vitro, in solid or liquid media, transported in sterile containers are not subject to the provisions of the Convention)

However, this is only valid for seedlings obtained from legally collected parent species. (For Pk in Peru there are three nurseries with legally collected parent plants)

The phytosanitary requirements are not CITES regulated and may differ from country to country. Canada does require Phytosanitary for imported flasks with one exception: Importing from the Continental USA, 1-50 plants IN/OUT FLASK personally carried;for personal use, bare root. These do not require Phytosanitary documents, unless they are from designated US Oak Death Areas. Listed by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency.

 

[gonewild]

In Peru, INRENA does not issue phytosanitary certificates. The phyto certificate is issued by SENASA. SENASA won't (or should not) issue the certificate without paperwork from INRENA to show the plants were produced legally.

If SENASA issues a phyto certificate the USDA will assume the plants are legal for plants in flask. Even for plants out of flask unless the USDA inspector has a reason to believe differently, they will assume the shipment is legally nursery grown based on the SENASA paperwork.

At least this has been my experience with plants other than orchids.

 

[NYEric]

It is so sad to see nobody cares about illegal PK hybrids in the market.
INRENA-Peru-CITES has no record of any Phrag kovachii X besseae exported by Peruflora. So how do you explain all those hybrids in the market in the USA? And people buying from non registered plants sources out of Peru...
conclusions: nobody cares anymore.
sweet dreams orchids fans, sweet dreams....

OK Isaias, I actually dug out the cert. documents on the Pk x besseae from Orchidview and it lists Peruanino S.C.R.L. as the exporter. so how is this an illegal hybrid? Or did I miss something?

 

[isaias m rolando]

NYEric, Ask Peter C about those papers. He will tell you....

 

[Kyle]

However, this is only valid for seedlings obtained from legally collected parent species. (For Pk in Peru there are three nurseries with legally collected parent plants)

If I understand you correctly Peter, That is the little twist that the Americans have put on CITES in regards to flasks. In Canada, the authorities don't care about the origin of the parents of the plants in flask.

Kyle

 

[Greenthings]

If I understand you correctly Peter, That is the little twist that the Americans have put on CITES in regards to flasks. In Canada, the authorities don't care about the origin of the parents of the plants in flask.

Kyle

No it is not a twist put on the CITES rules by the Americans.

Though the annotation in App I gives the impression that all App I flasks are exempt, it failed to say that this is only true when the seedlings have been propagated from legal stock, and propagated under the CITES definition of Artificial Propagation.

In regards to Pk, this has been taken care of by INRENA, who issued licenses to three nurseries who have to work within the CITES definition of Artificial Propagation. INRENA does inspect these nurseries' Pk stock plants, laboratories, Pk flasks etc.

Thus if you obtain Pk flasks from the INRENA licensed nurseries CJM, Peruflora and (Nuevo Destino, not yet offering Pk fasks.) that hidden AP definition has already been looked after. Thus basically, one only needs a Phytosanitary certificate, which are issued by SENASA (Ministry of Agriculture) but only after INRENA (Institute of Natural Resources) assures them that the seedlings are legally propagated.

One could say then that a Pk flask Phytosanitary certificate from Senasa already guarantees that the AP definition was taken care of. It is like a two in one document in the case of App I flasks

I believe some people are working with the CITES Secretariat to try to get them to correct the annotation in the Appendices.

If you like to read up on this, go to the CITES website at (www.cites.org) Under Resolutions, you will find the excemption in CITES Resolution Conf. 11.11 (Rev. CoP13),

How Importing Country authorities go about enforcing the rules; what documents they wish to see, varies from country to country.

Sorry for the long winded explanation.