Rick
Well-Known Member
Can you list species/cultivars?
Kelp / Seaweed Additives
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Can you list species/cultivars?
Most paph species are having good root growths. My paph intaniae is doing good as well. New roots and a leaf. same with adductum. My best adductum grew 2 leaf in 4 months. 1.5 leaf.
One ridiculous paph is paph philippinense. I just potted this last november and Now I am needing to pot it again.
I was just actually telling my friend paphman about the seaweed. I'm going to send him some to try.
One ridiculous paph is paph philippinense. I just potted this last november and Now I am needing to pot it again.
I was just actually telling my friend paphman about the seaweed. I'm going to send him some to try.
Stone
Well-Known Member
I think I read somwhere that too much kelp can deform flowers/growths. anyone hear of this?
Rick
Well-Known Member
I heard this too, but not sure what constitutes "too much".
When I use it (weekly) at 1/4 tsp/gal I'm well below the label recommendations.
emydura
Well-Known Member
The fertiliser I use has kelp included. I seem to have had a few flower deformities lately. Currently have two Delrosi in bud where both plants had buds develop straight out of the crown. Both times the flowers were pretty deformed as well. Normal spikes seem to be developing now. They are both first flowering divisions so it is no big surprise. My Harold Koopowitz had one flower with no dorsal and another two flowers with dodgey staminodes. But then these sort of hybrids often seem to throw up deformed flowers. I've had flowers with no deformities. None of the 15 dianthum flowers were deformed.
Anyway I will keep a closer eye on this. At the moment I'm happy to sacrifice a few flowers for the huge increase in new growths I'm seeing. I was checking my roth yesterday and noticed a few new growths. It has two flowered growths and 4 new leads including 3 new leads from the one growth. I'm seeing a lot of that now where previously I couldn't even get 2 new leads a growth.
Stone
Well-Known Member
Hi David, I think I also read of a Taiwan grower who uses kelp as part of his feeding program specifically to get more leads on his plants. Not sure if he was growing paphs or phals but kelp is gaining a reputation for doing this.
emydura
Well-Known Member
As I have changed a few things at once I'm not sure what is the main driver behind this. It could be the huge increase in Ca, Mg, or kelp or the reduction in k or the change to a foliar fertiliser or all of the above. But it is nice to see the increase in growths as this was one of my biggest concerns. I'm really excited about how my plants will look in 2 or 3 years time if they keep growing at this rate.
I know that excessive application of IBA and NAA can cause deformities in phalaenopsis flowers - I've seen it myself - but that was at one tablespoon per gallon at every watering, and they are far more concentrated than seaweed extracts.
I have heard of KLN, superthrive and hormex when applied in huge amounts but never heard of kelp yet. I'm following Rick's 1/4 dosage and application. I have a couple of buds, delenatii and niveum so I will post those soon and see if they have some sort of deformation.
Rick
Well-Known Member
I've been using things like ST, KLN, Kieki Pro, and Kelp almost continuously for the last 10 years. Kelp (the latest) for about a full year now. Probably my highest rate of crippled flowers was during the Keiki Pro or ST times, which were all high K times too. At this time I've seen virtually no crippling over this present period of low K and kelp.
My present theory is that the K is actually the big bloom forcer (as blooms and fruits are where most of the K goes to in plants), and what ever hormone enhancement is added is mainly an enabler.
So if the basic plant foundation is inadequate (small, stunted, anemic) from low or constrained Ca, Mg, then forced plants will have a higher rate of flower crippling.
I think the glaucophyllum I've been posting about may be a good example since they bloom on the same spikes over extended periods, and new growths will start spiking before the old spike is done. The first spike (from a growth produced during a previous owner) produced almost all faulty flowers. I almost felt like pitching the plant. But with newer growths and spikes the flower quality is improved considerably. The newest spike with no faulty flowers at all so far.
If you need another caution, then also consider the excess use of magnesium. Magnesium is rarely found in the environment at higher concentrations than Ca. In my tox testing with aquatic organisms, even fairly low concentrations of Mg cause impairment to organisms if the Mg concentrations exceed Ca concentrations. Slipperking experienced some flower crippling in his phrags (with longifolium parents) when we were pushing epsom salts pretty heavy, and probably giving chronic doses of Mg in absence of adequate Ca.
So Ca may be the best regulator to use as the balance point of all these feeding trials.
My present theory is that the K is actually the big bloom forcer (as blooms and fruits are where most of the K goes to in plants), and what ever hormone enhancement is added is mainly an enabler.
So if the basic plant foundation is inadequate (small, stunted, anemic) from low or constrained Ca, Mg, then forced plants will have a higher rate of flower crippling.
I think the glaucophyllum I've been posting about may be a good example since they bloom on the same spikes over extended periods, and new growths will start spiking before the old spike is done. The first spike (from a growth produced during a previous owner) produced almost all faulty flowers. I almost felt like pitching the plant. But with newer growths and spikes the flower quality is improved considerably. The newest spike with no faulty flowers at all so far.
If you need another caution, then also consider the excess use of magnesium. Magnesium is rarely found in the environment at higher concentrations than Ca. In my tox testing with aquatic organisms, even fairly low concentrations of Mg cause impairment to organisms if the Mg concentrations exceed Ca concentrations. Slipperking experienced some flower crippling in his phrags (with longifolium parents) when we were pushing epsom salts pretty heavy, and probably giving chronic doses of Mg in absence of adequate Ca.
So Ca may be the best regulator to use as the balance point of all these feeding trials.
Stone
Well-Known Member
Years ago I had a haynaldianum which produced badly distorted flowers often with parts missing for three consecutive years so I ended up burning it!
With the Ca Mg thing, My reference says that ratios are not critical but a Ca/Mg ratio of 5 is commonly used. Also if high levels of K are being applied and the water contains little Mg, then the ratio should be nearer to 2, and that media in which growth is excellent tend to have extractable Ca/Mg ratios in the 3 to 4 range.
Gypsum is a good source of slow release Ca. as it is far more soluble than Dolomite 2.41 g/L compared to 0.01g/L for Dolomite.
My problem with Gypsum is that 5 out of 5 samples I've tried where contaminated with lime!
With the Ca Mg thing, My reference says that ratios are not critical but a Ca/Mg ratio of 5 is commonly used. Also if high levels of K are being applied and the water contains little Mg, then the ratio should be nearer to 2, and that media in which growth is excellent tend to have extractable Ca/Mg ratios in the 3 to 4 range.
Gypsum is a good source of slow release Ca. as it is far more soluble than Dolomite 2.41 g/L compared to 0.01g/L for Dolomite.
My problem with Gypsum is that 5 out of 5 samples I've tried where contaminated with lime!
Rick
Well-Known Member
Most natural surface or ground waters already have a minimum 2:1 Ca to Mg ratio. Waters/terrestrial environments with reversed Ca:Mg ratios are rare.
Even if your water is "soft" (not "softened") that ratio will still hold.
It's usually pretty easy to get a local ag or analytical lab to determine the calcium and magnesium content of your water. Most municipal supplies get tested regularly and the reports are free from the municipality.
If your water has a hardness of 80 - 100 mg/L as CaCO3 you will probably have water with about 25 ppm Ca and 5 ppm Mg in it. Using this regularly on your plants will decrease dependence on adding solid lime or dolomite to potting mixes.
I'm spoiled in my lab with easy access to reagent grade salts. Gypsum is just calcium sulfate and probably easy to get from a chemical supply house without any lime contamination.
I was also surprised to find that agricultural grade calcium nitrate has a pretty high amount of residual ammonia in it compared to the lab grade stuff I was using (but still only about 1%).
Even if your water is "soft" (not "softened") that ratio will still hold.
It's usually pretty easy to get a local ag or analytical lab to determine the calcium and magnesium content of your water. Most municipal supplies get tested regularly and the reports are free from the municipality.
If your water has a hardness of 80 - 100 mg/L as CaCO3 you will probably have water with about 25 ppm Ca and 5 ppm Mg in it. Using this regularly on your plants will decrease dependence on adding solid lime or dolomite to potting mixes.
I'm spoiled in my lab with easy access to reagent grade salts. Gypsum is just calcium sulfate and probably easy to get from a chemical supply house without any lime contamination.
I was also surprised to find that agricultural grade calcium nitrate has a pretty high amount of residual ammonia in it compared to the lab grade stuff I was using (but still only about 1%).
The Mutant
Well-Known Member
I've started using seaweed extract now too, but I'm using SM 6 since it was the only one I could get here in Sweden. Unfortunately, I can't use the magnesium since the calcium won't be available until June/July, and after reading that you should use these chemicals together, I'll just have to wait until the calcium is in stock.
From my reading (and my experience, as limited as it is), you want an extract that is higher in auxins than cytokinins.
Auxins primarily stimulate the growth of root tips (hence my photo in this thread), while cytokinins primarily function in the elongation of cells - growth of the plant.
Different plants react differently to the two classes of hormones. If the additive is higher in cytokinins, you will probably see plant elongation and growth , but that may, or may not not be accompanied by more root growth. If, on the other hand, the additive has more auxins, you will always see more adventitious root tip growth, and as they growth, they produce cytokinins to aid in the plant growth.
I'm really interested to see how these kelp additives work with flowering plants, as most of the experience is with food crops. The guy that imports Kelpak is primarily a vintner, and he specializes in syrah and petit syrah. He uses the stuff in the spring to stimulate root growth and kick start the vines so they grow better, and thereby produce more and better fruit. Then, as the grapes grow, he applies it again, only this time he's looking for the cytokinins to cause extension in the rachis, separating the grapes so he can get more effective penetration of fungicides, giving him more, top-quality grapes per bunch.
Auxins primarily stimulate the growth of root tips (hence my photo in this thread), while cytokinins primarily function in the elongation of cells - growth of the plant.
Different plants react differently to the two classes of hormones. If the additive is higher in cytokinins, you will probably see plant elongation and growth , but that may, or may not not be accompanied by more root growth. If, on the other hand, the additive has more auxins, you will always see more adventitious root tip growth, and as they growth, they produce cytokinins to aid in the plant growth.
I'm really interested to see how these kelp additives work with flowering plants, as most of the experience is with food crops. The guy that imports Kelpak is primarily a vintner, and he specializes in syrah and petit syrah. He uses the stuff in the spring to stimulate root growth and kick start the vines so they grow better, and thereby produce more and better fruit. Then, as the grapes grow, he applies it again, only this time he's looking for the cytokinins to cause extension in the rachis, separating the grapes so he can get more effective penetration of fungicides, giving him more, top-quality grapes per bunch.
K
keithrs
Guest
I read that you don't want to use much when flower past the flowering stage because the hormones can deform the flowers and reduce the count.....that is for veggies at least.
Rick
Well-Known Member
As opposed to using things like Superthrive, KLN, or Keikipro, kelp products have a lower percent of the total product as auxins and cytokinins. There are a lot of other beneficial organic compounds that do things like help transport and chelate metals (including the majors like Ca/Mg/Na/K).
Many of these compounds will be similar to the organics that leach out of bark moss or chc. So this could be a plus for SH and hydro growers that use primarily inorganic media.
I wouldn't be to scared of using kelp at low doses.
Many of these compounds will be similar to the organics that leach out of bark moss or chc. So this could be a plus for SH and hydro growers that use primarily inorganic media.
I wouldn't be to scared of using kelp at low doses.
True enough, Rick.
Kelpak is 11mg/L auxins (7 different ones) and 0.031mg/L cytokinins (12 of them), giving it a grand total of just over 11 ppm hormones.
K-L-N, by contrast is 0.15% auxins - 1500 ppm.
Kelpak is 11mg/L auxins (7 different ones) and 0.031mg/L cytokinins (12 of them), giving it a grand total of just over 11 ppm hormones.
K-L-N, by contrast is 0.15% auxins - 1500 ppm.
I recently started using this - http://www.natrakelp.com/uploads/analysis(1).pdf
Only problem is its so thick I had to drill out the holes in my watering cans rose!
Only problem is its so thick I had to drill out the holes in my watering cans rose!
