Kelp / Seaweed Additives

[Roth]

I don't think its time to panic and supplement boron separately yet. Watch for another couple of weeks (hopefully getting sunny again) and maybe get a few cheap hygrometers to see what your humidity is really at (my plants really prefer 70% or greater).

To be honest, from time to time in the past I got sometimes stunted roots. Repotting solved the problem in most cases, but after a while it would restart again. An analysis of the potting mix at the time of repotting and when the plants started to exhibit stunted roots showed no major accumulation/deficiency, and nothing that could explain really the problem, except low boron and zinc. I tried zinc alone, but it did not help. Boron on the other side restarted the root growth in a week or two, and the plants never looked happier.

Norman's Orchids is selling now another 'magic fertilizer' ( Turbo thrive), that most people claim do wonders. In fact, the only important ingredients in this fertilizer additive are molybdenum ( to help for the nitrate uptake, especially for MSU users...), and boron.

I supplement boron, but I would not advise anyone to do so unless you are ready to pay for a potting mix analysis, water analysis, and be exceedingly careful to whatever you add to the water, fertilizer, pesticides. It is indeed very easy to overdose boron (though I went up to 10ppm in an experiment with Paph. St Swithin seedlings, and they did not show any trouble over a year...). The way you flush the pots is important. If you flush a lot, then the boron can be deficient. If you do not flush enough, then there can be an accumulation up to a very toxic level if you supplement boron.

Overall, many growers experience a boron deficiency, many growers experience as well a boron toxicity. The symptoms are stunted roots, chlorosis of the whole plant, or part of, and stunted shoots after a while ( small leaf syndrom). After a long time with boron deficiency, the older leaves will start to become bronze colored, then dry to a brownish color. It is very hard to correct at that time. Sometimes the plants will make a lot of side shoots that do not grow well.

Many potting materials have enough boron to start with ( lava rock especially...), but after a while, the supplies are depleted. If you use too much calcium too, the boron deficiency will be sharper, and the symptoms will be quite similar to a calcium deficiency ( anyway, calcium needs boron to be absorbed so it's normal).

If you are a chemist, and willing to pay for analysis, go ahead with the boron, it really helps to grow the plants better and faster. If not, better be happy with the way your plants are growing...

Boron is locked up at high pH, and is readily soluble, and flushed quickly at low pH. As a result, it is always recommended to apply boron at low rates all the time, depending on the crop ( some crops need really high levels of boron, I remember about pansies, and one nut tree...). If you have a boron deficiency, whenever you use calcium nitrate or lime, the plants will become a strange chlorotic color, and the leaves will be stunted quickly, that's why now the new trend in the Netherlands is to add boron to calcium nitrate all the time.

Most fertilizer companies supply a fertilizer that is extremely low in boron, to be on the safe side. Years ago, they used to supply fertilizers with higher, suitable boron content. However, some users had already enough boron in their potting mix or water, and the added boron from the fertilizer brought a lot of those fertilizer manufacturers to the court, with entire crops being stunted by boron toxicity.

 

[keithrs]

I don't think its time to panic and supplement boron separately yet. Watch for another couple of weeks (hopefully getting sunny again) and maybe get a few cheap hygrometers to see what your humidity is really at (my plants really prefer 70% or greater).

I'm not going to supplement anything at this point. I do have several hygrometers but they don't respond that fast. Analog type....

 

[Stone]

the new trend in the Netherlands is to add boron to calcium nitrate all the time.

Interesting. How much B is added? Is this when Calnitrate is used alone?

 

[Ray]

Norman's Orchids is selling now another 'magic fertilizer' ( Turbo thrive), that most people claim do wonders. In fact, the only important ingredients in this fertilizer additive are molybdenum ( to help for the nitrate uptake, especially for MSU users...), and boron.

I just got back after 10 hours on the road from Dayton, so may be "road dazed", but I don't understand that statement. MSU has both micronutrients already.

 

[Roth]

I just got back after 10 hours on the road from Dayton, so may be "road dazed", but I don't understand that statement. MSU has both micronutrients already.

The concentrations of boron is definitely too low in MSU and most fertilizers, and the concentration of molybdenum can be too low under certain circumstances. Tap water or potting mix can supplement, but in my conditions, I found out boron deficiency to be somewhat of a problem, the main symptoms of a mild deficiency being that the plants do not grow as fast as they should. If it goes further, chlorosis, root stunting...

 

[cnycharles]

a number of our fertilizers at work have low amounts of boron and molybdenum added, and my boss during earlier years would point out to us the signs of boron deficiency. when we make up pansy/petunia feed, we do add a set amount of boron, iron and citric acid to each barrel for these plants. sometimes I think the petunias look a little 'gray' green, and wonder if this is too much boron. on these fertilizer packages, they do state that the levels of ferts and micros are for a 'constant' feed rate, so if you are continually using these fertilizers, the micros most likely would be enough as they are being added all the time, though in low amounts. if you were doing feeding like for houseplants where you give a large dose and then not feed for a long period of time, then it's very possible that the micros aren't enough. then again, the only time you would have a truly constant application of the fertilizer would be in an aqua culture/hydroponics

 

[Ray]

The concentrations of boron is definitely too low in MSU and most fertilizers, and the concentration of molybdenum can be too low under certain circumstances. Tap water or potting mix can supplement, but in my conditions, I found out boron deficiency to be somewhat of a problem, the main symptoms of a mild deficiency being that the plants do not grow as fast as they should. If it goes further, chlorosis, root stunting...

Thanks for the explanation. So what boron level should we be looking for?

 

[Roth]

Thanks for the explanation. So what boron level should we be looking for?

At present time I am using the following for the micros, but a disclaimer, I have no idea how it would work in any specific setup. I have most of my plants in Orchiata, some in tree fern and sheet moss ( mostly Solomons stuff and ooii...), and some in other things here and there.

The well water is sprinkled to precipitate the iron since some days now (before I did not, and ended up with a brownish reddish sludge in the RO system, that I though was bacteria slime, but in fact is iron hydroxide...), then cheaply filtered. Afterwards, the pH is raised to 10-11 with KOH to precipitate the boron if any, dropped with HCl to 7, and the remaining is filtered through a high performance RO system under high pressure, about 250L/hour (costly crap...). The EC of my water is currently below 8 microsiemens.

I have a friend using rain water with the same mix, successfully, and another one in Malaysia using the same mix, with city water. So anyone who wants to try the following, do it at your own risks, and try it for some months. I use it for a couple years now, though I increased even more boron last year. The leaves of all the paphs are dark green, and most of the Solomons species, as well as ooii and intaniae, grow really wonderfully well and fast.

Final concentration in the feeding water (approximate) in ppm:
Fe 0.3
Mn 0.65
Zn 0.3
Cu 0.35
B 0.45
Mo 0.5

mg/L of final fertilizer:
NaFe EDTA 2mg
MnSO4, H2O 2mg
H3BO3 2.4mg
ZnSO4, 7H2O 0.8mg
CuSO4, 5H2O 1mg
Na2MoO4 1mg

all the time. It is vastly more than MSU (especially if the MSU is used at less than 1g/L final concentration...). You can get good results with lower B and Mo indeed, but for some species, there has been many problems to grow them unless the boron was raised.

I got some foliar analysis of phalaenopsis malipoensis and maculata where the boron level in the leaves was several times the level that would kill a rose or lily...

If anyone wants to try, feel free to do it, but do not complain if your plants are toasted afterwards As for me, the plants are growing great, and I feel there is an increase in seed quantity and quality since I am using those concentrations. It would be logical, as boron in some other crops helps promote good quality seeds in case of deficiencies...

I tried MSU, like Wendy, and the multifloras looked like crap indeed after only a few weeks using it, really. I tried as well to add some ammonium sulfate to the MSU, which improved the things a bit. Now I am forced to try the MSU again, to understand why it is such a failure, and indeed, it is still a giant crap without ammonium in my condition, but there is a significant (huge) improvement with increased boron. Again, too much calcium with not enough boron can result in a boron deficiency, that will indeed induce a calcium problem. I am doing more trials with the MSU again ( as one orchiata customers wants absolutely to use MSU, I cannot figure why he is focused on MSU, but anyway...), to see what's wrong after all. Boron and ammonium seem to be two of the problems, in my condition, and quite a few other people's ones ( including sphag growers, bark/peat Dutch growers...).

 

[Rick]

The boron issue does appear to have a lot of species specificity.

When preparing for the boron project in my lab, we reviewed the toxicity literature, and the most sensitive data was developed for wetlands plants. The organisms like worms, scuds, water fleas, mollusks,..... all could handle several orders of magnitude more boron than the plants. And the amount the wetlands plants (like cattails, sedges, rushes) was absolutely tiny compared to the amount we are throwing on our orchids in fertilizer.

Then there are places that have naturally high boron concentrations (with high Calcium concentrations) that wetlands plants grow just fine.

Now with K lite and kelp I don't have any paphs (including multis) having problems developing roots. And since my base water is virtually devoid of boron, then it seems that the boron level in K lite is adequate or compensated for with the kelp.

 

[Rick]

http://www.ajol.info/index.php/wajae/article/viewFile/45717/29195

Here's an interesting link to a paper on boron in African coffee plantations.

Although it acknowledges the link between Boron and Calcium, it appears that organic content and pH are more influential for uptake of B than calcium concentration. Subsequently in soils that would normally be considered impoverished for boron for growing coffee, the plants with appropriate OC and pH environment demonstrated good leaf tissue Ca/B ratios despite the low soil boron concentrations.

Extrapolating the B concentration from % in K lite or MSU (0.2 mg/L B at 100ppm N application rate) it seems to be in the middle to lower end (concentration wise) of what would be considered normal for agricultural soils.

Considering this thread's focus was originally on Kelp extracts, the additional B and high OC of kelp extracts in conjunction with MSU levels of B should provide more than enough "bioavailable or bioactive" boron to do the job.

 

[Rick]

Final concentration in the feeding water (approximate) in ppm:
Fe 0.3
Mn 0.65
Zn 0.3
Cu 0.35
B 0.45
Mo 0.5


all the time. It is vastly more than MSU

If you are using K lite or standard MSU at 100ppm N then you should have 0.2 ppm B, which I wouldn't say that a factor of 0.44 is "vastly" less than the above.

Going back to pH though, Keithers mentioned that his pH is now always > than 5.9 s.u. But in the coffee paper, it appeared that boron uptake dropped significantly at pH greater than 5.8, and optimal boron uptake was at pH below 5.8 (which was where his pH used to be) regardless of calcium concentration.

So if all of Keithrs root growth or lack thereoff was related to B then yes his system was optimal when his pH was lower, and OC's from Kelp were present.

 

[myxodex]

Anyone have any experience of BioAg's Cytoplus ... a blend of humates and kelp extract with micronutrients added ? Can't find a source for it this side of the pond ... and maybe better to have a humic/fulvic concentrate separate from kelp extract anyway, if you don't want to apply hormones regularly but want to leverage the chelating properties of fulvic more regularly.

 

[Ray]

Looking into the Cytoplus, it appears to be leaning more to the cytokinins, rather than auxins - good for growth, no so much for rooting. There's a Cytoplus/worm tea comparison on pot plants that favored the worm tea.

If anyone is interested, I received a PDF slide show summary related to flowers from the Kelpak people.

 

[Ray]

I inquired of the Kelpak folks about the specifics of their recommendations, and got the following response:

The reason why we recommend the 14 day interval is based on the responses we see. The effect to the roots in many plants we start seeing after about 7 days and the effect to top growth at about 14-20 days. The plant clearly is going through a series of responses and we would like to see the cycle completed, before we take the plant through that cycle again. The flush in roots is causing an increase in natural cytokinin production (as these hormones are produced only in root tips). The improved nutrient uptake, together with the higher cytokinin levels now promote shoot growth, flowering. If you keep applying an auxin dominant product such as Kelpak, you are not allowing the cytokinins to become dominant. So with appropriate time once the cytokinins was allowed to become dominant and trigger their typical responses, you can start applying auxins again, to take the plant through the next cycle. We have often seen less good results with weekly applications as compared to biweekly applications. We normally apply 2 biweekly applications when we want to boost the roots, then we would do two applications again when we want to initiate flowers and so forth.

The 1:500 dilution is what we found to be the lowest rate of Kelpak to cause a response in most plants. There are a few species that will respond to lower rates applied as a drench such as roses and here are a few species known that will need up to 1:300 to cause a rooting response. With flowers and especially herbaceous flowers we seem to get good responses with 1:400 to 1:300 dilutions applied as drenches.

As for trying a rate of 1:1000, we certainly have seen an effect on roses, but with several species we have had no responses. I think you must determine yourself which of your species will still respond to such a low level of Kelpak. The theory is that you need a certain concentration of auxins on the outside of the cell membrane to allow transfer over the membrane by diffusion, to enter the cytoplasm of the plant where it will trigger the response.

 

[Brian Monk]

I would caution anyone to view these statements about Boron in the light of the types of plants they are growing. Boron levels can be very high (can't rememeber exact PPM, but MUCH higher than surface water) in the deep wells in southern Florida, and resulted in a toxicity problem in my GH that eventaully resulted in the loss of over 75% of the intergeneric Oncidiinae collection.

 

[Roth]

I would caution anyone to view these statements about Boron in the light of the types of plants they are growing. Boron levels can be very high (can't rememeber exact PPM, but MUCH higher than surface water) in the deep wells in southern Florida, and resulted in a toxicity problem in my GH that eventaully resulted in the loss of over 75% of the intergeneric Oncidiinae collection.

That's what I said already... Many growers experience a boron deficiency, and many growers experience a boron toxicity, that's why the fertilizer companies never include enough boron in the stuff they sell, because depending on the water and the potting mix, you can damage your entire nursery. I suspect that there are some oddballs too which require levels of boron that would be toxic to other species, like it happens for general horticulture.

My water to start with has over 25ppm of boron from the well, that's why I process it down to 0ppm, then I add it back. However in Europe and many parts of the USA, there will be 0ppm to start with, same with RO water processed through a specific boron-removal setup, or some of the newer sea water/marsh water specific ROmembranes.

But if it is deficient, the symptoms are really dramatic, the same if it is in excess...

 

[Ray]

There is a product now called "Mega Thrive" (formerly Turbo Thrive) that is a 3-0-3 (or 4) with extra boron and molybdenum, and is touted as a foliar booster.

Someone pointed me to a video on their Facebook page that is intended to describe its benefit, but it strikes me as being a really good descriptor of the benefits of high-auxin seaweed additives. https://www.facebook.com/megathrive

 

[consettbay2003]

Ray, as paphs are relatively slow growing, do you think that perhaps a 14 day cycle is too short for Kelpak use. You were told that in many plants the effect on roots is apparent after about 7 days - I can't imagine paphs responding that quickly. At the moment I use Kelpak ( 1 Tbs./ gallon ) every 14 days but have not used it long enough to make comments on it's befefits.

 

[Ray]

Ray, as paphs are relatively slow growing, do you think that perhaps a 14 day cycle is too short for Kelpak use. You were told that in many plants the effect on roots is apparent after about 7 days - I can't imagine paphs responding that quickly. At the moment I use Kelpak ( 1 Tbs./ gallon ) every 14 days but have not used it long enough to make comments on it's befefits.

That would assume I'm an expert in paph physiology, which I'm not....