K-Lite Trial Observations

[keithrs]

I don't think the "extra" Ca and Mg is a problem for most species. The only ones I fill that may not like it is pleurothallid.

I do have a Masd. floribunda that has started to yellow the tips on older grow but it also has new growth and a seed pod. I grow it in straight moss in a basket. I'm not saying k-lite is the cause.... yet, as it just may be shedding old growth.

Just to add....I also have the purple form floribunda and it doesn't show the same symptoms. I grow that in fine bark, pumice mix in a clay pot. My Restrepia muscifera that is yellowing in the same fashion.
The leave in the middle was dryed out before the K-lite trial....

 

[Rick]

Back to the thread at hand folk! I've picked up on a change in the roth plants only so far. Much lighter green then before tittering on yellow. I've been watering for a month at least maybe a week more with K-lite only at 75ppm in my rain water. I may have to add some Epson's back into the water?

I'm still getting good quality green on my Roths. Not super dark green, but light grass green. Also new roots and overall leaf growth rate is way up.

Mine are in moss baskets and they periodiacally recieve a very light top dressing of "Cichlid sand" which is primarily aragonite sand (calcite). This is primarily for pH control which could be just as much an issue with your roths as opposed to K deficiency.

I'm feeding only once a week, but in between I water on sunny days with my diluted well water with a smidge of Mag sulfate added. So the between fert waterings always have a bit of Ca/Mg available.

I wouldn't add any more Mg to your feed, but you may consider maintaining a weak dose of Ca/Mg in your generall irrigation water instead of pure rain water.

 

[Rick]

Maybe I am one of the few in the trial growing in pure New Zealand sphagnum moss? I think I do well with this because with my modest sized collection I hand water each plant when it is the right "dryness". I also monitor the effluent from periodic pots (about 50 ml RO over the top as described by Bill Argo and Y-T Wang and others) to keep the EC and pH under control. To keep the pH from being too low (less than 5.0) I have been gently top dressing pots, as needed, with palletized dolomitic lime, which is a combination of Ca and Mg salts to provide buffer. My theoretic question is whether anyone thinks the additional Ca and Mg that comes from this could be an issue with the K-Lite fertilizer? I am afraid I couldn't help myself and am also going to be adding Ray's Kelpac in my regimen, so I now have two variables in the experiment.

I was using a kelp extract before reducing K and am still using it. I also have aragonite sand in my moss baskets as an ammendment.

Unless you grow hydroponically there are plenty of variables in this test already

 

[Ray]

More K-Lite is now available - 2# jars and 25# bags. Probably the last I'll get for a while.

 

[Stone]

Back to the thread at hand folk! I've picked up on a change in the roth plants only so far. Much lighter green then before tittering on yellow. I've been watering for a month at least maybe a week more with K-lite only at 75ppm in my rain water. I may have to add some Epson's back into the water?

I kind of doubt that you would see a deficiency after 6 weeks of low K especially with slow growers. Old leaf deficienies usually show up as the plant is actively growing and thereby relocating N, K, and Mg especially, from old to new. Is the whole plant yellowing or the new or old leaves? Have you increased light intensity?

 

[Stone]

I don't think the "extra" Ca and Mg is a problem for most species. The only ones I fill that may not like it is pleurothallid.

I do have a Masd. floribunda that has started to yellow the tips on older grow but it also has new growth and a seed pod. I grow it in straight moss in a basket. I'm not saying k-lite is the cause.... yet, as it just may be shedding old growth.

Just to add....I also have the purple form floribunda and it doesn't show the same symptoms. I grow that in fine bark, pumice mix in a clay pot. My Restrepia muscifera that is yellowing in the same fashion.
The leave in the middle was dryed out before the K-lite trial....

Just my 2 cents worth Kieth but the first masd. in moss looks like a case of over-watering/ feeding? If you have the same sp. in bark/perlite doing well and you're feeding both at the same rate then maybe the mossplant is getting overloaded?

The next 2 pics. (again just a guess!!) looks like oldN and/or K and/or Mg deficiencies but this may be caused by lack of good roots, obviously NOT lack of application. I'd be inclined to remove plant, blast the roots with fresh water and remount/pot and not feed anything until the're under way.

Mike

 

[Rick]

Keithrs

I also have a handfull of Pleuros of different types.

These are also much more sensitive to low humidty and higher temps than most of my other orchids.

I have been seeing some improvement in my handful of pleuro types too, but I had to repot them (or mount them) to see the results, and pretty much had to write off the old growth and watch the new growth come in.

That's pretty similar to what Mike is suggesting.

Actually the results I'm getting now are encouraging me to try a few Draculas again.

I would love to see someone with Telepogons try this stuff out.

 

[Ray]

FWIW, I have an ascocenda and vandofinetia that just had a couple of lower leaves each turn yellow almost overnight - but at the same time, they started sprouting new root growth like mad.

 

[keithrs]

Keithrs

I also have a handfull of Pleuros of different types.

These are also much more sensitive to low humidty and higher temps than most of my other orchids.

I have been seeing some improvement in my handful of pleuro types too, but I had to repot them (or mount them) to see the results, and pretty much had to write off the old growth and watch the new growth come in.

That's pretty similar to what Mike is suggesting.

Actually the results I'm getting now are encouraging me to try a few Draculas again.

I would love to see someone with Telepogons try this stuff out.

Rick,
I'm not equivocating the yellowing of the leaves to solely to K-lite as other factors like humidity have played a role(eg. drying of the leaves). But they turned yellow fairly fast. I have also reduced the amount of fertilizer and the frequency that I apply. All of the plants shown are fairly new(bought within the last 6 months) and are going into a terrarium soon. They surely didn't get the best care.

 

[keithrs]

Just my 2 cents worth Kieth but the first masd. in moss looks like a case of over-watering/ feeding? If you have the same sp. in bark/perlite doing well and you're feeding both at the same rate then maybe the mossplant is getting overloaded?

The funny thing is that the one in bark had very little root mass when I took it off the mount and potted it.... the yellowing started after I reduced the feed amount. It many be getting to dry in-between waterings?

The next 2 pics. (again just a guess!!) looks like oldN and/or K and/or Mg deficiencies but this may be caused by lack of good roots, obviously NOT lack of application. I'd be inclined to remove plant, blast the roots with fresh water and remount/pot and not feed anything until the're under way.

Mike

On the Restrepia, You can see that I removed it from the mount to check the root mass. The roots aren't the best but not the worst..... But I think your right on the deficiencies being old.... There is a clear difference in new vs. old growth.

I will be removing them from there mounts soon enough.

 

[abax]

I began the K-Lite Monday morning and am going to keep
to the parameters of the test using only K-Lite once a week
at 1/2 tsp. per gallon. I'm especially interested in five Paphs. that haven't bloomed for me. Two are multigrowth plants that appear to have never bloomed.
Three are one growth complex Paphs. The Conestoga and Concolor have several new growths and I'm very interested in the development of these new growths.

 

[Roth]

I have seen plants similar to Keithrs a few times, and it happened to me when I tried the MSU fertilizer ( calcium nitrate included). Usually, a few days after they look like that, they will defoliate. It is a nutrient deficiency induced by the high calcium content, in some situations.

If he uses 10-52-10 PlantProd, the plants will be dark green quickly.

For roths, the normal wild color is blackish green leaves for the lowland types, and dark frank shiny green for the highland types. I always worry when the leaves are lighter green, because it is not due to the light or whatever,but a deficiency... Even some world famous growers got yellowish roth, and this is a nutrition problem definitely. it is exacerbated and spreads very quickly by the application of calcium nitrate.

 

[Rick]

Rick,
I'm not equivocating the yellowing of the leaves to solely to K-lite .

I didn't take it this way, just offering more options.

 

[Rick]

Back to the thread at hand folk! I've picked up on a change in the roth plants only so far. Much lighter green then before tittering on yellow. I've been watering for a month at least maybe a week more with K-lite only at 75ppm in my rain water. I may have to add some Epson's back into the water?

Rick

When was the last time you repotted these plants? I remember when you were shifting a lot of stuff to orchiata, so have these been shifted over too?

Interestingly the leaf tissue/leaf litter data for serpentine based forests (such as where roths come from) does not look different than over karst limestone based forests. Even though the serpentine geology/ecology has much more Mg available than Ca in these areas.

So it may be worth cutting back on N and going back to rebalancing Ca/Mg in your irrigation water.

 

[keithrs]

I have seen plants similar to Keithrs a few times, and it happened to me when I tried the MSU fertilizer ( calcium nitrate included). Usually, a few days after they look like that, they will defoliate. It is a nutrient deficiency induced by the high calcium content, in some situations.

If he uses 10-52-10 PlantProd, the plants will be dark green quickly.

I had been using a version of MSU for about 3 month before this trial.... before I was using Growmore 20-10-20. I have a version of 4-12-4 in liquid form... will that work? Its 10-30-10 cut 2.5 X.

 

[Stone]

. QUOTE]It is a nutrient deficiency induced by the high calcium content, in some situations.

I think I saw this problem with my stuff when I was using Cal.nitrate almost excusively. I suspected that excess Ca was giving me a Mg. deficiency as my fert. had Mg. at about 1/10th of Ca. After cutting the nitrate by 1/2, doubleing Mg and introducing Ammonium sulphate, the greening improved dramaticlly.
I just received 2 roth sibs. and a gardineri which I presumed were all grown and fed together? The gard. was a nice darkish green but the roths were extremely yellow but otherwise seem healthy. They are staring to green up after 2 sprays with very dilute urea and Mg.

If he uses 10-52-10 PlantProd, the plants will be dark green quickly.

This looks like outrageously high P!?

 

[Rick]

Orchiata bark (which I know Rick uses) is enfused with a dolomite (lime) solution.

So lots of Ca/Mg available in fresh bark, but also potential for some residual higher than normal alkalinity levels (as would be observed by a higher than normal pH).

That would encourage the need for a higher amonia content relative to nitrate if that were the case. But the mix would wash out fast enough without doing much of anything different in the short term too. The new fert has a low but, significant residual of ammonia in it too.

If the mix is old and sour then nothing goes into the plant well (Ca, Mg, N, K).

So I'm interested in seeing the age/status of his mix.

 

[gonewild]

This is starting to sound like an episode of "Doctor House"!
:clap:

 

[Rick]

And yet for a more complex theory:

Now that we unload the root zone from higher levels of salts/nutrients do we get to see a rebuilding and shift of the bacteria/fungi in the potting matrix? Subsequently an adaptation lag to see what the plant actually ends up getting nutrient wise?

 

[SlipperKing]

I must apologizes If I got anyone overly excited. I re-read my earlier post and I may have stretch the wording (yellow) a bit much. I have a handful of roths all from different breeding and all of different sizes as well. Maybe 3 or 4 look lighter green then before then the rest. Especially at *night* in the greenhouse with the fluorescent lights on. That's a key point because when checking the plants during the daylight hours they are a lighter green then the surrounding plants not yellow, at least not yet and not all of them.
The one that really caught my eye was the Dou Fong X Green Valley plant and that lighter color maybe due to its breeding background. I know a lot of folks have bought this cross in the past. Does anyone else, maybe not using the K-lite Fert see light green plants also?
As for re-potting, I've finish that task starting late Dec to present. I do use a lot of stone/ agraflor(?) particles in my Orchiata mix. I doubt it has any major effect. One other interesting note for Rick. The oldest roth I have is still in the same mix/ basket since Jan 2010 and no color change on it= dark green.