K-Lite has been around a few years now... updates?

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There is ample proof (trials) that normal K leves work and do NOT produce deleterious effects. It's not anecdotal.


Mike, maybe I'm over-interpreting, but many of those arguments appear to be based upon experience when applying fertilizers with high K levels, but we need to consider that part of the goal of low-level application is to forestall accumulation within the growing media.
Most growers do not intentionally "push" the life span of their media, but change it out regularly, so don't really test that.

With over 40 years of orchid growing under my belt, I too, have used fertilizer formulas with high - and very high - K levels. I cannot say they were damaging to my plants. What I can say is that my experience with very low levels is also not damaging to my plants or their blooming performance, but - and this is "just anecdotal" - I perceive that plants I have intentionally left in the same S/H pot and medium for several years are showing sustained growth and blooming, when they had shown a decline under a different feeding regimen.


Ray Barkalow
firstrays.com
 
pH – 6.81
Conductivity – 60 uS/cm (TDS ~ 45 ppm)
Total Hardness – 26.4 mg/L as CaCO3

Everyday I'm amazed as to how little orchids need to thrive.


Indeed - that is a water quality I can only dream of! Our tap water comes with 1200 ppm and the most common drinking water has 401mg. Imagine the amount of salts I can add to get a decent water for my orchids! :rollhappy::rollhappy:

Which water I should use to flush with? :poke:

So I hardly ever use fertilizers - a bit of urea some times, a bit of epsom salts every blue moon - and my plants survive. A few years. A decade or so, which is pretty good when you are not growing mussels!
 
Needlessly offensive. Not glib. Succinct with perhaps a sprinkling of intolerance of failure to see the obvious.

Oh, I wasn't offended, just disappointed by your blatant misapprehension of what I've actually claimed. Perhaps you mistake me for someone arguing for K-Lite? And yes, 'glib' is a far more accurate description than 'succinct', as the latter implies a certain useful density of content that I didn't perceive in what you wrote.

Thinly veiled sarcasm as well!? That's the new level now is it?

That's rich! I intended no sarcasm or verbal irony in what I wrote and I'm sorry if that's how it came across, I'll strive to be more precise in how I communicate. Even had I intended sarcasm, though, you and others have written such blatantly rude invective against K-Lite's champions over the years that it's hard to take your pretended umbrage seriously.


So what more ''precice'' and less ''broad'' conclusions have you seen?
Please show and explain them to me.

No need whatsoever! Anyone with a basic grasp of how the English language is properly used to make, defend, and critique scientific claims can readily parse the inescapable vagueness and indefensible overbreadth of your blustery assertion. Since I know for a fact that you meet or exceed said 'basic grasp' threshold, it's hard to conclude that you're doing anything other than engaging in the "thinly veiled sarcasm" of which you just accused me.


Thank you (with all sincerity)! I've read most but not all of these, however none argue against my original point. I'll let you go back and re-read my original post in this thread to remind yourself of what I'm actually arguing.

I see that we have a mini-Lance.

I posted copious literature over the period of 2-3 years ago showing that the potassium toxicity conjecture was absurd; only to be met with flippant, disingenuous and sarcastic remarks like you have just demonstrated.

Nice to see you too, David! I'm sorry you think I'm being flippant, disingenuous, or sarcastic, but then you do always seem quick to assume the worst of others. Care to repost links to the literature supporting your extremely strong claim? Do you, as someone apparently highly versed in scientific inquiry, understand what I mean by a 'strong' claim? I'll give you a hint: it's not synonymous with 'good,' 'powerful,' 'airtight,' or 'easily defensible'... (and yes, that was a little sarcastic)

Going with the spirit of this overly anecdote-laden thread, I've discussed the assumptions behind K-Lite with several academics in the fields of horticulture, plant physiology, and plant pathology, and while all were initially skeptical, none found the idea implausible in certain contexts. Most intrigued by the idea were a couple of people doing cutting-edge research on microbial constituents of plant rhizospheres; apparently one of their main research interests right now is investigating what, if any, selective pressures might be exerted on associated microbes of food crops by conventional fertilization regimes, and how this in turn affects nutrient uptake, disease rates, and need for protective interventions like fungicides. And no, I won't name names. My point is about the utter insufficiency of support on both sides of this debate, not about the relative merits supporting either.
 
WHY CANT WE JUST TURN THIS INTO A POLL AND STOP THE PICKERING.IF IT WORKS FOR YOU GREAT AND, IF IT DIDN'T THATS OK TOO. ONE PERSONS CULTURE WONT WORK FOR EVERYONE. I KNOW I CANT GROW CATTS AS WELL AS SOMEONE IN HAWAII. SO I DONT TRY TO MIMIC THEIR CULTURE. This thread has officially gone nowhere from what was originally asked.lol!
 
Oh, I wasn't offended, just disappointed by your blatant misapprehension of what I've actually claimed. Perhaps you mistake me for someone arguing for K-Lite? And yes, 'glib' is a far more accurate description than 'succinct', as the latter implies a certain useful density of content that I didn't perceive in what you wrote.



That's rich! I intended no sarcasm or verbal irony in what I wrote and I'm sorry if that's how it came across, I'll strive to be more precise in how I communicate. Even had I intended sarcasm, though, you and others have written such blatantly rude invective against K-Lite's champions over the years that it's hard to take your pretended umbrage seriously.




No need whatsoever! Anyone with a basic grasp of how the English language is properly used to make, defend, and critique scientific claims can readily parse the inescapable vagueness and indefensible overbreadth of your blustery assertion. Since I know for a fact that you meet or exceed said 'basic grasp' threshold, it's hard to conclude that you're doing anything other than engaging in the "thinly veiled sarcasm" of which you just accused me.



Thank you (with all sincerity)! I've read most but not all of these, however none argue against my original point. I'll let you go back and re-read my original post in this thread to remind yourself of what I'm actually arguing.



Nice to see you too, David! I'm sorry you think I'm being flippant, disingenuous, or sarcastic, but then you do always seem quick to assume the worst of others. Care to repost links to the literature supporting your extremely strong claim? Do you, as someone apparently highly versed in scientific inquiry, understand what I mean by a 'strong' claim? I'll give you a hint: it's not synonymous with 'good,' 'powerful,' 'airtight,' or 'easily defensible'... (and yes, that was a little sarcastic)

Going with the spirit of this overly anecdote-laden thread, I've discussed the assumptions behind K-Lite with several academics in the fields of horticulture, plant physiology, and plant pathology, and while all were initially skeptical, none found the idea implausible in certain contexts. Most intrigued by the idea were a couple of people doing cutting-edge research on microbial constituents of plant rhizospheres; apparently one of their main research interests right now is investigating what, if any, selective pressures might be exerted on associated microbes of food crops by conventional fertilization regimes, and how this in turn affects nutrient uptake, disease rates, and need for protective interventions like fungicides. And no, I won't name names. My point is about the utter insufficiency of support on both sides of this debate, not about the relative merits supporting either.

Unfortunately I don't have time to respond at the moment but rest assured that this claptrap will not go unanswered.
 
Sigh, calm down guys… It's a thread I'm deeply interested into, but my current (for coming months if you please) state of health doesn't need such arguments and bashing and trolling when all can be talked into quietly.

I will go thru this summer into the litterature linked, but educated controversy means courtesy and quiet or we're just a bunch of pancrace players.

And to answer to Rick yes, orchids roots are highly efficient at taking every bit they can grab till saturated. And it's a fact (Vascular Epiphytes, love this book) for more than 23 years.
 
Oh, what a book! Just had a little impression online and it seems to be an amazing recopilation! Thanks for the link. Though, 99€ is not affordable for me now.
Keep healthy, lepetitmartien, and take care of all Vanillas!
 
Going with the spirit of this overly anecdote-laden thread, I've discussed the assumptions behind K-Lite with several academics in the fields of horticulture, plant physiology, and plant pathology, and while all were initially skeptical, none found the idea implausible in certain contexts. Most intrigued by the idea were a couple of people doing cutting-edge research on microbial constituents of plant rhizospheres; apparently one of their main research interests right now is investigating what, if any, selective pressures might be exerted on associated microbes of food crops by conventional fertilization regimes, and how this in turn affects nutrient uptake, disease rates, and need for protective interventions like fungicides. And no, I won't name names. My point is about the utter insufficiency of support on both sides of this debate, not about the relative merits supporting either.
Thank you, Nat.
 
My point is about the utter insufficiency of support on both sides of this debate

If that is your view point, going further is completely futile. If you and various others continually refuse to acknowlegde the overwhelming evidence that in almost all circumstances in the history of orchid growing K very clearly does not cause the effects claimed. (that is, to repeat one more time, reduced growth....no, increased incidence of disease....no, early death of plants....no, insufficent uptake of Ca....no, insufficient uptake of Mg...no, interference with uptake of any other nutrient....no, poor root growth...no, difficult cultivating certain species like callosum, sukhakulii and others....no, inability to grow phalenopsis in containers....no
That is not just me claiming these things, it is a fact (which has been proven again and again and again...not maybe or possibly but beyond any doubt mind you!!)...and if to you that is ''insufficiency of support'', I am (as someone told me) beating a dead horse.

There really is no argument. Just reallity on one side and theory at best or fantasy on the other.
That so many people are still at it is surprising to say the least.
 
And so SlipperTalk drifts off into the file of typical forums under the realm of Trolls.

Need to be accurate. I have not seen any evidence of a troll on this forum.
Every one has a right to argue a point and also to point out the flaws in someone else's argument as they see them.

That is all I have seen. The fact that you may be uncomfortable with any particular argument does not constitute being ''trolled''
 
To keep coming with the same argument however accurate they are is losing the "agree to disagree point". At one point it's bashing, then trolling. I don't want to point any here, nor telling who's right (got to do my homework), but to give things a chance to advance in an interesting manner, it's more than time for some, including me to dive into the litterature given and think on it. Redo the same ukazes for months won't get anywhere and it's tiring for everyone.

Note that I'm head mod on a tech website for 13 years, so I have a big flame/troll detector grown by use in a Lamarckian manner. ;) And we dont need flames or trolling (in case there's definitions out there) we are orchid lovers, not hairy underbirdge dwellers. ;)

Some may right, others may be to, everyone may be totally out in space either on something. But it's more than time to calm down and check facts, and there's plenty we have to digest first to add our 2 cents in a educated manner. Rick may be wrong, he may have pointed something interesting h minsinterprets, but respect is for all, thank you. And shouting the same arguments won't push truth if we can reach it any closer.

Yes Vascular Epiphytes is a great lecture, a large part of MSU is even in it in the analysis of water, and yes, Vanilla thrives ;)
 
To keep coming with the same argument however accurate they are is losing the "agree to disagree point".

Firstly it takes 2 to make an argument by definition. But sure ''I agree to disagree'' Just to be clear though, if someone recommends to a new grower to use K-lite to solve a particular issue, I should just read it and shut up because to post disagreement will start it all again.
Do I have that right?
 
I think that anyone recommending the use of a fertilizer to correct almost any plant growth issue is folly - with one exception: they have not been feeding at all, and there is a deficiency (which is likely very rare).

Orchid culture is a very complex combination of a myriad of variables, and I cannot imagine that any two growers have identical sets of them. I think it's entirely plausible that a difference in one variable might create the possibility that changing another might be an advantage, or might "still work fine", while it might not for the first grower.

I have great respect for the opinions of most of the folks here, but I don't believe that any have all the answers, and that these debates are more like the blind men describing the elephant.
 
I think that anyone recommending the use of a fertilizer to correct almost any plant growth issue is folly - with one exception: they have not been feeding at all, and there is a deficiency (which is likely very rare).

Orchid culture is a very complex combination of a myriad of variables, and I cannot imagine that any two growers have identical sets of them. I think it's entirely plausible that a difference in one variable might create the possibility that changing another might be an advantage, or might "still work fine", while it might not for the first grower.

I have great respect for the opinions of most of the folks here, but I don't believe that any have all the answers, and that these debates are more like the blind men describing the elephant.

I agree with what you said . I certainly am not claiming to know much. That why I try to disprove absolute statements with my observations and experiences. My point is that you can grow well with normal balanced fertilizer. Really well. So the statement that k is toxic at those levels and always prevents efficient and great growing from flask to bloom is not true. I'm sure there is more than one way to achieve good culture and different species even clones may vary. But I've seen the most evidence with normal fert levels and ratios.
 
I couldn't agree more with that last post.
Now let's shut this thread out. It's just tiring and waste of time and space for the most part, although I do enjoy hearing about different experiences different growers have at certain reasonable levels.
 
I agree with what you said . I certainly am not claiming to know much. That why I try to disprove absolute statements with my observations and experiences. My point is that you can grow well with normal balanced fertilizer. Really well. So the statement that k is toxic at those levels and always prevents efficient and great growing from flask to bloom is not true. I'm sure there is more than one way to achieve good culture and different species even clones may vary.

However, the flip side that K application > 50ppm is necessary to prevent catastrophic potassium deficiency as indicated in Wang's paper is equally untrue in the broad sense. Would have to note all the specifics.

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/42/7/1563.full.pdf

Even within this paper he cannot document the same lethal K deficiency symptoms for growing in moss vs bark. With further caveats to a specific Phalae hybrid clone, and specific fert N condition.

However in my GH, moss/bark/chc/ mounted/glass marbles I haven't killed anything with K application rates of <1ppm. And my plants are doing better than when I followed the basic generic advice about applying >50ppmK
 
Maybe this isn't the time or place to post this, but so much talk about fertilizer and how this is good and this is bad, I want to remind everyone that MSU developed their formula for their use with their water. It caught on when people started realizing how great their plants were growing, and the awards they were amassing. That's the well water formula. The rain water formula was developed as a modification for use with rain water at the request of Porter's Orchids.

Why do we still think one size fits all?!
 
So after 6 very long pages I will jump back in. I have grown plants for a long time and orchids for more than 7 of those. I am by no means a professional. During this time I have grown all types of genera and all types of species, from 'Easy' to 'why even bother'

While doing so I tried all types of fertilizers. Each one was given a fair shot. I have about 300 plants and after watching the effects of klite on them, I decided to quit using it. I described them at the beginning of this novel.

This was the only variable I changed. I changed away from klite and the issues stopped. This is the fact. No more no less. It is not opinionated or scornful.

So I am not saying klite is crap. I just won't use it. Everyone should decide for themselves. I never thought it would fix my flaws or even bloom better plants so i think i am being rational. What it did not do is bulk them up. If anything the exact opposite. To have a healthy plant in the long run, I want multiple growths. I now have that again on seedling sized slippers so I am content.

If some of you guys want to argue unproven theories with words half of us understand, go ahead. But my interest waivers. That is not a specific jab at anyone but one that should be said. If you want me to believe scientific facts, support them. And explain why. If not, I personally intend to trust my experiences. Same as life. If I can't explain the reasons, it's because I'm a hobbyist. And still content.
 
And as Ray re-pointed out, there'e more to it than just fert. I insist on the water qualities of testers, for one. Bad adequation is worse than any fert however good it is (tested the option, went to the wall).

Mike, I don't ask you to shut up, always remember I'm NOT an original English speaker, I may be more harsh than I intend. I ask for calming down to help everyone catch up and read to level, at least those who want and can. So we can progress instead of picking each other stupidly.

The agree to disagree etc is basic netiquette, it really helps online sometimes. We know your arguments, even all may not have understood fully (like me, as I've not read everything as I should have, but I'll have time this summer). And it goes for other speakers here. I'm just trying to pacify an interesting debate before it goes way too far down the drain to the common defeat. It's important, we can all learn from this thread and we already did. The community here is usually softspoken and knowledgeable, it'd be stupid to keep this as a battle when we all want some truths coming out. Even if it means someone is wrong, or that fert x or y is flawed or not, or only adapted to some water qualities and why.

Am I clearer this way. :) I appreciate your input, I just regret I have not had the time to give it the full attention it deserves.

"Patience and length of time
Do more than force or rage."
La Fontaine, Le lion et le rat.
 

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