Inexpensive kovachii

[Fabrice]

It's a false controversy.

There's the flower picture (it would just be better to see the whole plant)
The buyer will appreciate the form and will probably grow this plant for his pleasure, just to bloom it in the next 2,5 10 or 25 next years.
I don't understand where is the genetical problem in this case. And more, it's necessary to be careful. For me, this flower could be like that because of another environnemental problem when it spiked. 2nd bloom could be normal.

Personnaly, I wouldn't buy this plant but I know why. If someone like the esthetic and if the plant grow normally, no problem. That stops the controversy.

 

[Heather]

Thread Moved

Since I will be closing the vendor forum this was originally posted in, I've moved the discussion here to Breeding & Production. There will be a redirect from the original site as well but once I close the forum I'm not sure it will be accessible.

This may not be the most appropriate forum fit to continue the discussion but it seemed to be the best contextually.

Carry on!

 

[Kostas]

For under 100$, I would happily buy and bid for it if OZ allowed. I have a friend who wants to grow this species but can't because of price and would happily give it to him. I also see it as mostly stemming from environmental factors or something random and not poor genetics, second bloom will show but I am 95% sure it will be pretty normal looking, even if not award quality. But awards are pretty subjective to my eyes, I care for what a species looks like in nature and I am not so much for line breeding

 

[emydura]

The whole thing is pretty irrational to me. If you don't like it don't buy it. The argument that it damages the Orchid Zone's reputation doesn't wash with me. John would sell many unflowered seedlings where results like this can occur. In fact he could have sold this seedling before it flowered. It doesn't matter how good the breeding is, there will be some plants that will be of inferior quality. That doesn't mean it damages the reputation of the Orchid Zone. If John has to be able to guarantee that all plants that leave the Orchid Zone are of top quality, he would not be able to sell unflowered seedlings. He would have to flower all plants first to ensure quality control. A totally ludicrous situation that neither benefits him or us.

 

[gonewild]

The whole thing is pretty irrational to me. If you don't like it don't buy it. The argument that it damages the Orchid Inn's reputation doesn't wash with me. John would sell many unflowered seedlings where results like this can occur. In fact he could have sold this seedling before it flowered. It doesn't matter how good the breeding is, there will be some plants that will be of inferior quality. That doesn't mean it damages the reputation of Orchid Inn. If John has to be able to guarantee that all plants that leave the Orchid Inn are of top quality, he would not be able to sell unflowered seedlings. He would have to flower all plants first to ensure quality control. A totally ludicrous situation that neither benefits him or us.

It's not unflowered. And you are right it wont damage the reputation of image of Orchid Inn.

 

[emydura]

It's not unflowered. And you are right it wont damage the reputation of image of Orchid Inn.

DOH!!! Apologies to Sam and John, I have corrected my post above.

My point still stands though. You make the point that if the buyer of this plant later on sells this plant claiming it is a quality plant from OZ, it damages OZ's reputation. If he had bought the plant before it flowered, he could do exactly the same thing and sell it as a quality plant from OZ. There is no difference. The reputation of the seller is at question here, not OZ.

 

[ehanes7612]

ebay sucks

 

[gonewild]

DOH!!! Apologies to Sam and John, I have corrected my post above.

My point still stands though. You make the point that if the buyer of this plant later on sells this plant claiming it is a quality plant from OZ, it damages OZ's reputation. If he had bought the plant before it flowered, he could do exactly the same thing and sell it as a quality plant from OZ. There is no difference. The reputation of the seller is at question here, not OZ.

About reputation....
OZ built it's reputation for quality by not selling low quality. Historically they did not sell unflowered seedlings. The point is when you purchase an unflowered seedling you take your chances. In this case OZ took the chance and "lost"(not really since ebay buyers are paying a profitable price). Based on OZ's previous reputation they would not likely sell that runt plant with their name on it simply because it is so far below the normal quality.

I just don't believe a commercial breeder of quality plants should send to market every plant that survives, culling is part of the advancement.
But that's just my opinion.

And no matter who resells it in the future OZ is responsible for creating it...good or bad. When low quality plants have a source label on them they will over time reflect on the quality the source nursery produces.
Sure it's just one plant but what if OZ sells all their runts, will they maintain the high standard they are known for?

 

[paphioland]

This might be the most absurd thread to date in my opinion. It is John's business. He can do what he wants. People can give their opinions if they want. You know what they say about opinions? Actually I think John has benefited lots of people on here with access to plants they might not have previously had access to.

By the way Terry sold every plant he could. He only culled plants that were money losers. Meaning they grew really slow or were prone to disease. He sold Crappy plants as pot plants. There were lots of them. You know what percentage of even a great complex cross are pot plants???? I'd say over 80 percent. Anyone could buy pot plants. He was happy to get rid of them. Most of them went to florists, or casinos or Hollywood studios or anyone who wanted to buy them. So this whole thread is absurd.

 

[NYEric]

"pot plants"!?:evil:

 

[monocotman]

Selling a 'runt'

There is a world of difference between selling the runts from a complex hybrid cross and and what appears to be one from a straight species.
There will be a much bigger percentage of poor plants from the complex cross.
My view is that it is very likely that this plant will flower out with a perfectly acceptable flower when older and bigger. You can see from the third photo that the plant is a small first flowering seedling with just a few paleish leaves.
Who was it that said ' never toss a Phrag until it has flowered three times?'
The first flowering of my Phrag kovachii hybrid La Vingtaine was hopeless. You would have thrown it there and then if you believed that this was going to be the final result. The third flowering is my avatar and a nice thing.
Two good things from a breeding perspective I can see in this plant. The colour is good plus it wants to flower even when not at its best. It could mean that it is a free flowering clone.
Personally I would buy it if I could and have no problems with its sale.
You know what you are getting which is much more than can be said compared to unflowered seedlings from a complex cross.
David

 

[Ozpaph]

Ferrari will never sell a mass consumer vehicle; its a reputational risk.
'Big Brands' dont sell 'seconds' themselves, they outsource to 'factory outlets'.
Similarly, if I was a 'high end' orchid vendor I'd sell it through a 'third party' without my name attached. ie disconnect the brand from the inferior product and still re-coup costs.
The logic is simple - an inferior product is distributed through a mass media outlet (in this case eBay) with the 'aspirational' brand name attached. The more this occurs the greater the likelihood the brand becomes attached to inferior products................not what most companies aspire to.
Id re-think my brand strategy if I were them.

 

[Happypaphy7]

What you said about the high end brands strategy is very true.

I think it is somewhat different here with plants though when you consider it's plants although the basic principle might be similar.

Personally, I don't have any problem with eBay.
Sure there are lots of strange and inferior products but there are also lots of great stuff. It is also a very convenient and easy way to sell products given its high visibility and popularity.
I like the fact that I can see the plants offered on eBay as I prefer being able to see the plants before buying to avoid any disasters.

Ferrari will never sell a mass consumer vehicle; its a reputational risk.
'Big Brands' dont sell 'seconds' themselves, they outsource to 'factory outlets'.
Similarly, if I was a 'high end' orchid vendor I'd sell it through a 'third party' without my name attached. ie disconnect the brand from the inferior product and still re-coup costs.
The logic is simple - an inferior product is distributed through a mass media outlet (in this case eBay) with the 'aspirational' brand name attached. The more this occurs the greater the likelihood the brand becomes attached to inferior products................not what most companies aspire to.
Id re-think my brand strategy if I were them.

 

[John M]

"pot plants"!?:evil:

Oh Eric....grow up! oke:

Context is everything. This context has nothing to do with "your kind" of pot plants! :rollhappy:

 

[John M]

Ferrari will never sell a mass consumer vehicle; its a reputational risk.
'Big Brands' dont sell 'seconds' themselves, they outsource to 'factory outlets'.
Similarly, if I was a 'high end' orchid vendor I'd sell it through a 'third party' without my name attached. ie disconnect the brand from the inferior product and still re-coup costs.
The logic is simple - an inferior product is distributed through a mass media outlet (in this case eBay) with the 'aspirational' brand name attached. The more this occurs the greater the likelihood the brand becomes attached to inferior products................not what most companies aspire to.
Id re-think my brand strategy if I were them.

Hmmm? That's good food for thought. That way, costs are recouped and someone still gets a relatively cheap kovachii; but, the high-end brand name's status is maintained and does not become known as "just another orchid nursery".

 

[paphioland]

Ferrari will never sell a mass consumer vehicle; its a reputational risk.
'Big Brands' dont sell 'seconds' themselves, they outsource to 'factory outlets'.
Similarly, if I was a 'high end' orchid vendor I'd sell it through a 'third party' without my name attached. ie disconnect the brand from the inferior product and still re-coup costs.
The logic is simple - an inferior product is distributed through a mass media outlet (in this case eBay) with the 'aspirational' brand name attached. The more this occurs the greater the likelihood the brand becomes attached to inferior products................not what most companies aspire to.
Id re-think my brand strategy if I were them.

Oh they don't? How about the california? They have levels as well. The ff is crap. Many Ferraris were crap. The comparison is not relevant either. The oz has been selling all levels of their breeding as long as I can remember and their brand is just fine. Plants are a genetic lottery with the odds slightly influenced by breeding. You are going to compare them to cars? I think it's funny if the oz threw out all pot plants and only sold highly select plants then they would be astronomically expensive. I think what many people think is good is crap. Where do you draw the line? Throw out anything that is not spectacular? 99 the percentile?

 

[Lint]

Everyone suggesting to trash the plant should be ashamed of themselves. Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. I for one am sick of every species being bred towards flat dinner plate shape.

So the plant does not fit your arbitrary ideas about beauty? Big deal! Someone else will like it. It's sold as is with flower picture, so whoever buys it knows what they are getting themselves into.

 

[gonewild]

Everyone suggesting to trash the plant should be ashamed of themselves. Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. I for one am sick of every species being bred towards flat dinner plate shape.

So the plant does not fit your arbitrary ideas about beauty? Big deal! Someone else will like it. It's sold as is with flower picture, so whoever buys it knows what they are getting themselves into.

Not arbitrary ideas based on beauty. The judgment is in comparison to what a wild normal kovachii looks like. Culling the plant is how to keep a captive strain of a species consistent and in a genetic form that represents wild plants in Nature.

 

[jtrmd]

I know I would trash(cull) it, if it were in my GH. I just got done throwing(culling) away another 30 plants that in my opinion weren't up to par of putting time into growing on.
As for this kovachii I say sell it, so someone could get it cheap. That way they can learn how to grow it. They wouldn't be out a whole bunch of $, if it dies I have two kovachii's that are about blooming size. If they bloom out ugly they will join all the others in the compost pile.

 

[Secundino]

This whole 'award-prize-beauty' thing is very questionable. I'd prefer a floppy 'bad' tridimensional Phal. equestris a hundred times before getting a line-bred plant that for some reason is still called 'equestris' and does not look like a wild equestris at all.

Look at the in-situ photographs which have been posted in this forum, for Paphios, Cypris and Phrags: not all are perfect, and some are even deformed. As long as their propagating organs work in the way they should - forming a capsule and releasing seed - they are substantial part of the genetic pool of that species at that specific place.
That has nothing to do with beauty (beautyful to whom? the hoover fly?) and even less with any arbitrary award-judgement.
For nature 'beauty' as we see it is unsubstantial; vigour and the ability to procreate whatever strain is essential.

I don't like kovachis (in fact, the 'best' are the ugliest to me) and this one isn't cheap any more (for my purse) but if I had the opportunity where I live to buy a cheap and interesting species like this plant, I'd do.

Of course, I understand the point that those, like me, who we don't like Phrag. kovachii because we don't think it is a nice flower at all, this special one could reinforce our opinion! Not all of the thousands and thousands of orchids species coming from Peru can be just simply gorgeous!

It's just a plant! Sell it! No harm at all ...