Inexpensive kovachii

[Justin]

nothing wrong w/selling a plant as-is. it's kovachii, folks, not a line-bred roth, which i believe they do cull.

 

[Ross]

It's a tough call, John, but you are selling it in the most ethical way by giving photos of both the plant and flower. The buyer can make their own value judgement.

 

[gonewild]

Lance, why do you say this is a weak plant that wouldn't survive in the wild? Looks pretty healthy to me even with a wonky first bloom. Besides, even 'weaker' individuals often carry genes that are valuable to maintain in a population. If we're entertaining grandiose visions of preserving a rare species in captivity, then linebreeding for bigger, rounder flowers is probably a lot worse for the captive population's long term fitness than is failure to cull out subjectively uglier individuals.

Because the flower is very much different from the normal wild species form it can be considered a runt or genetically weak individual. The plants that OZ bought from SA growers (this seedling) are not likely line bred but rather bred from wild collected parents. So the offspring should carry the traits of the parent population. I dont see how "weaker" genes have value to a population. My comments are not about beauty but rather about proper plant breeding.

 

[NYEric]

I'm worried about growing and learning cultural requirements, not breeding, so it's not an issue if I win it!

 

[paphioland]

As a professional breeder you should compost it and not perpetuate poor genetics.

These are plants not animals and even animals you would just prevent it from breeding. Just because it is uglier than average to me doesn't make it unhealthy. Everything is relative. People breed crap all the time I wouldn't. How can you control that. People could go to home depot buy a paph and self it. You could say 99% percent of orchids shouldn't be bred. That is the exact reason why John is selling it. He is not encouraging people to breed with it. It is being sold at pot plant price and has no reserve on ebay. It is accurately described and pictured. It may even bloom better next time. There is no reason in my eyes to trash this plant if someone will enjoy it and maybe get it to bloom a little better next time. And almost no orchid place trashes pot plants unless they are weak growers or prone to disease. They sell them as pot plants. John is just nice enough to give an enthusiast the chance to buy it instead of selling it to pot plant buyers.

 

[Bob in Albany N.Y.]

I had been trying to keep out of it, BUT I'm with Paphioland on this one. He couldn't have said it better. I don't grow a single phrag. but thanks John for offering it to others to learn on, as well as enjoy.

 

[Happypaphy7]

Many great points have been made here about OZ selling this plant, and I see some very flawed reasoning as well as usual.
I also agree with pretty much everything positive said about it.

I don't see how it should ruin OZ reputation. He was being clear about everything, the photos of the flowers (sure, ugly, but not everyone has the same beauty standard and some people also just love oddity), pricing, and the purpose, which is great because someone out there who finds this flower pretty and don't have to spend tons of money can get this and be happy with it.

 

[gonewild]

So in the end OZ becomes known as a source of low quality plants at cheap prices, that's a change and I guess people want change.

 

[Heather]

It is interesting to me that I can't recall another thread like this on on of our vendor forums. I am somewhat disturbed by the judging of John and his decision. The Orchid Zone has been a great supporter of this forum since John took over the operation of the business and it has been so nice to have Orchid Zone finally participate more in this community. Not too long ago very few of us could buy anything from their breeding. I remember a time where folks complained about the exclusivity of the business and now this?

Shame that something like this may drive them away from sharing opportunities and participating here.

 

[NYEric]

Forget everyone else, I've always been a fan John! :evil:

 

[gonewild]

It is interesting to me that I can't recall another thread like this on on of our vendor forums. I am somewhat disturbed by the judging of John and his decision. The Orchid Zone has been a great supporter of this forum since John took over the operation of the business and it has been so nice to have Orchid Zone finally participate more in this community. Not too long ago very few of us could buy anything from their breeding. I remember a time where folks complained about the exclusivity of the business and now this?

Shame that something like this may drive them away from sharing opportunities and participating here.

Actually I did not express my opinion to criticize John or OZ. I did so as what I feel is sound advice for them to safe guard the high reputation OZ has achieved. John asked why, so I gave him an answer. Since having an open discussion is no longer politically correct please delete my posts.

 

[Ross]

I support John in this instance. I also face this quandary when selling plants in bloom, and I do something similar:
1. I sort the plants in order of the flower quality
2. I price them accordingly, with lesser quality flowers cheaper and
3. Put them out on the table together and let the buyers choose.

Some pay for the higher quality and some happily grab the lower priced plants. There have been times when someone picks up a lesser flower and states that they like it better than the other ones. As has been said earlier: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[tant385]

But selling with the full disclosure now does not guarantee that this plant several month later will appear on ebay with tag "OZ breeding" without ugly looking flower and with very good price and somebody will buy it. And then the reputation can be ruined

 

[gonewild]

But selling with the full disclosure now does not guarantee that this plant several month later will appear on ebay with tag "OZ breeding" without ugly looking flower and with very good price and somebody will buy it. And then the reputation can be ruined

Exactly my point.

 

[mormodes]

I'm with Lance.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[Happypaphy7]

Actually, not so.

When someone considers buying a previously flowered paph, and for quite a bit of money, it is wise to ask the seller for flower pictures.
Well, actually this should not be the order. When selling a previously bloomed paph for premium claiming it is from so and so, and the seller has nothing to hide, then he will and must post a picture showing the flower. That's just how it should be done.

If the seller fails to show flower pictures and tries to sell previously bloomed plant for a premium wherever the plant comes from, it is instantly suspicious and only dumb people will fall for it.

Plus, when the sale is not directly from OZ, and when the full disclosure is not given, then OZ cannot be blamed. Some people still might, but that's their problem being irrational and unreasonable.

Also, lastly, this plant is not of OZ breeding but an import from South America.

 

[Happypaphy7]

I support John in this instance. I also face this quandary when selling plants in bloom, and I do something similar:
1. I sort the plants in order of the flower quality
2. I price them accordingly, with lesser quality flowers cheaper and
3. Put them out on the table together and let the buyers choose.

Some pay for the higher quality and some happily grab the lower priced plants. There have been times when someone picks up a lesser flower and states that they like it better than the other ones. As has been said earlier: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Exactly. There are markets for everything and different people have different tastes/standards. With broader options to offer, more people can have access to different plants.
No reason to ruin reputation. Only more people will be happier, and the bitching will always be there.

 

[John M]

No vendor, who has bills to pay and a business to run, has an obligation to trash a plant just because it's not up to show quality standards. This plant, just like the really good ones, represents part of John's net worth and it is responsible for a share of his expenses. As long as it's in good health, he has every legal, moral and ethical right to sell it at what the market will bear....as long as people know what they're buying.

John has excellent ethical standards by providing FULL DISCLOSURE and showing current photos of the plant and flower. If anything, I believe his reputation will be enhanced by doing this. People who don't care about show quality form can now afford to buy healthy plants from the Orchid Zone......And, people who want quality and are paying for it, will know that John has pre-culled the pre-bloomed plants with poor form out of his "high-end" sales stock and that means they're far less likely to get a "bad one". Now, if a person pays $350 for a pre-bloomed plant, they can rest assured that they're not going to get a plant with flowers like this. They know that John culls them and sells them off at a different price point. They know that what they get will be exactly what they want and paid for. That makes for a happy customer and more repeat business at both ends of the price spectrum.

So, this strategy serves the people who want to grow orchids; but, can't afford the normal prices and it serves the high-end growers who don't want to pay normal or high prices and end up with average or poor show quality. It also serves John's desire/need to bring in revenue and pay his bills and make a living while he keeps his business healthy and prosperous. It's a win/win/win for John and all his customers, regardless of their financial standing.

As long as the plant is healthy, there's nothing wrong with this at all....nothing.

 

[Happypaphy7]

couldn't agree more!

 

[dodidoki]

I would buy it soon, but I'm out of US. By the way, most of USA wendors are suffering with this silly problem: no sell out of US. However these plants are arteficially propagated. US lows need to modify, I think. I never understood why these arteficially propagated plants are prohibited for exports.