Dolomite lime for Paph. concolor

[Roth]

Actually I find that organisms optimally evolve to conditions that they can live in non-competitively, making restricted range organisms much less adaptive to change. If your above theory was correct, then we would find paphs growing like weeds in agricultural areas, and all the plants in our GH's would all be monster specimen plants.


The paper on plants growing over serpentine was especially enlightening. Serpentine has tons of Mg, low Ca, lower yet K and PO4. Yet for the 30 or so trees analyzed non are "adapting" but all are modifying their intake to balance their ions for optimal metabolic requirements. They end up with high Ca, lower and even Mg and K, and more P than found in the soil. As the authors point out, the "adaptive evolution" is to evolve protein and enzyme systems that can manipulate the external environment to make it optimal for the internal environment. However these enzyme and protein systems are now in their genes, and most of these species are now stuck living over serpentine, and will never be competitive in a cornfield no matter how much fertilizer you pour on them.

Absolutely, furthermore, I think that paphs have evolved a mechanism to take up things other than mineral ions. And definitely they synthetize at their roots compounds that solubilize insoluble compounds they need. If those compounds are freely available, they will just poison themselves.

 

[Rick]

Has someone actually done the experiment? The next step after that would be do alter one nutrient at a time to determine which is rate limiting and redo the analysis.

Yes, we are all greedy - bigger, faster, better.

Very limited info on doing this with paphs but lots of info in the agri world with commercially important crops.

Which is pretty much what I'm saying. Corn, wheat, rice, asparagus, tomatoes, coffee, bananas..........all +/- the same thing. The handful of orchid data is pretty much in line with most other plants.

I work as a toxicologist, with a recent project on wild rice (in Minnesotta and Canada). All literature shows it to have very similar physiology (and nutrient requirements) to cultivated rice strains in Asia. Agri scientists have been taking apart and studying rice at the molecular level since 1930's, and developing line bred strains for better performance for hundreds of years. The performance increases and tolerances to extreme conditions are really pretty modest (+/- 20%) given the 100's of years of efforts in line breeding. GM plants can demonstrate huge changes in comparison because the inserted genes come from organisms adapted to totally different habitats.

I work a lot with water fleas in my lab (Ceriodaphnia dubia). One complaint of these organisms is their inability to handle salts. The physiology is so well studied at this time that computer simulations are available to model the toxic response to different combinations of the major ions. Lots of our industrial clients ask to to line breed "salt tolerant" Cerio, and this has been tried in lots of labs for decades. The generation time is only about 7 days, and so labs have gone through hundreds of generations to develop for instance potassium or sulfate tolerant cerio, but the best results increase tolerance by only 20%.

I guess another interesting point on working with water fleas is that tolerance of salt solutions can be increased by over 100% with high calcium levels relative to sodium and potassium, which appears to be the same response as for plants.

 

[Rick]

Another interesting case in our lab is some recent testing with marine fish and invertebrates for a commercial salt manufacturer.

They refine sodium chloride and have lots of NaCl discharged in storm water.

We found that salt water organisms (adapted to living in a solution that is 66% NaCl (natural sea water), will die in less than 48 hours in 99% NaCl solutions even though the TDS is the same as natural seawater (3%).

But if you add Mg/Ca/K in the correct ratios as natural seawater you can increase the tolerance to NaCl by as much as 20% (3.6%) over natural sea water levels.

 

[Ozpaph]

I guess another interesting point on working with water fleas is that tolerance of salt solutions can be increased by over 100% with high calcium levels relative to sodium and potassium, which appears to be the same response as for plants.

So, practically, how do we do that?

 

[Rick]

So, practically, how do we do that?

In the industrial case with Cerio we switched the process form using soda ash (sodium carbonate) to hydrated lime (calcium hydroxide) for the neutralization of sulfuric acid waste. This produced a solution predominated by calcium sulfate instead of sodium sulfate. The acute toxicity (LC50) based on TDS was reduced from cerio dieing at 1200 mg/L to over 2500 mg/L.

We also tested a naturally salt tolerant organism (Daphnia maga) and saw similar results with LC50 going from 2500 mg/L (for the NaSO4 mixture) to over 4800 mg/L for the predominant CaSO4 mixture.

From an orchid standpoint:

1) Find fertilizer mixes that have reduced K relative to N and P.
2) Don't use potash supplements to modify pH
3) Analyze your irrigation water to see if you can balance the Ca and Mg with the K in the fertilizer.
4) solid lime amendments to the potting mix may be helpful
5) Epsom salt addition to irrigation and fertilizer solutions may be needed for balance.

 

[Rick]

Xavier has done some work on leaf analysis. The thread below is worth a look.
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7692

Regards, Mick

I remember this thread from ways back, and have learned allot since then.

Even with this limited info the leaf data for stonei and a couple of others demonstrate that the Ca/Mg/K ratios are nothing like MSU formula or any other balanced fert on the market. The empahsis in this discussion also focused on some more rare elements, namely boron.

Our lab has recently done a bunch of toxicity work with boron for the steel industry. On a physiological basis it is a critical element in the metabolism of (primarily) calcium. It's absolutely necessary at low concentrations to facilitate the uptake and utilization of Ca, but as the dose increases, it actually impedes (up to reversing) the uptake of Ca. Depending on the organism and dose you can generate osteoporosis with boron. At lower doses it builds calcium up in the system.

 

[quietaustralian]

Paph concolor GIAP

My wife sent some pics of recently blooming plants.
I thought this one might be of interest.

This is one of the largest concolors we have produced, its quite large while retaining some form NS 87mm



Mick

 

[Rick]

My wife sent some pics of recently blooming plants.
I thought this one might be of interest.

This is one of the largest concolors we have produced, its quite large while retaining some form NS 87mm



Mick

That one has very full petals!

What is your basis for starting and stopping your seasonal fertilizing? Do you just put it on a calendar, wait for signs of growth, wait for a certain temperature?

 

[SlipperFan]

My wife sent some pics of recently blooming plants.
I thought this one might be of interest.

This is one of the largest concolors we have produced, its quite large while retaining some form NS 87mm

Mick

That is simply gorgeous!

 

[SlipperKing]

I agree Dot!

 

[goldenrose]

:drool::drool::drool: