Your experiences with armeniacum?

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Stone

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I now have 40 or so species of paph:drool:, mostly seedlings and young plants and all are either doing well or at least satisfactory except one.....armeniacum. I've noticed that for some on this forum it grows like a weed (under lights) but for me (in the glasshouse) it struggles. I've got 2 seedlings (and another on the way) they did ok for a while, put out new roots and then lost them. Put out another in moss and lost that, grew a new leaf and then stopped dead. What the hell's going on?? Should I find a cold spot for it? Wet? dry? hot? cold? dark? bright???? I'm going to grow it well if its the last thing I do!!
I haven't dared feed them yet....
All thoughts welcome.

Mike
 
Me too Mike!

For me these and micranthum have been boom and bust. Grow like crazy bloom, and then burn out. I've rebooted since going low K so I'm either trying to bring back some long term beat ups or I've only had them for less than a year.

The basket system has always work better than pots for me, but even that has not been full proof. We'll see how sparse feeding and TDS management helps.

I think Leo Schordje and JPMC have the best armeniacum/micranthum long term on the site, so you might dig up their old posts.
 
Count me in :( but I've never gotten them growing like crazy, more like the slow train to the graveyard! I've had 2, and there's no way the 3rd times a charm!
... on the other hand I don't seem to have a problem with armeniacum hybrids.
 
I'm going to try an armeniacum and a micranthum and am going to buy both within the next five months. I have orchids that go crazy for me under T5 lights that just do average for others who grow in greenhouses. Maybe it has to do with constant light levels?
 
One thing that was intriguing from the field data was how light levels went up dramatically during the colder parts of the year, and down during the heat. In general armeniacum and micranthum are two of the more cold adapted paph species. The hooks on the leaves of micranthum may be an adaptation to providing a means of frost insulation.

However, I recall from some of Leo's threads that getting temps down near freezing where not a necessity for either blooming or long term maintenance.
 
Good questions Mike !!!! I killed already 4 of them over the years! Number 5 (in basket) and 6 (recent purchase) are just surviving actually!
My micranthums grow well but do not bloom :eek: !! Maybe (heated) gh culture is nothing for them! Jean
 
from seeing here and from vendors who have come to our shows selling armeniacum, there seem to be the usual group of them that are probably more closely resembling plants with genes being presented in the wild. these plants seem to prefer having a cold/bright winter, and be fairly dry. however, there are ones that are most likely improved varieties that have come out of flask, and selection has removed some of the need for a cold/dry/bright winter, and they are vigorous and fairly healthy year 'round whether or not they have a cooler and such winter. main street orchids from pennsylvania who comes to the rochester ny show has a clone that is fairly vigorous and doesn't seem to need so much of the winter rest.

if there is some doubt, you could always try the cooler, brighter winter, if things don't seem to be doing well, otherwise. my piece of main street's plants (purchased two different times) seems to be fairly tolerant of my treatment of it. mealybugs decimated my first piece, which was growing and putting out shoots very nicely, and the second one is doing fine though being somewhat mistreated this summer. other clones that I had purchased from rice's orchids years ago were not so vigorous or happy in the winter with normal treatment, and are all in orchid-heaven. i'm sure jim's plants were all more closely-related to wild gene combinations
 
I find that for armeniacum, they prefer a slightly acidic mix which is weird for a species that is calcareous. They are at their best when the mix has started to break down as oppose to fresh at least in my experience and plants.

I believe JPMC armeniacum doesn't get any winter rest or dry period. In fact when he did. The flowers buds have blasted. Hope he will chime in when he sees this thread.
 
I find that for armeniacum, they prefer a slightly acidic mix which is weird for a species that is calcareous. They are at their best when the mix has started to break down as oppose to fresh at least in my experience and plants.

I believe JPMC armeniacum doesn't get any winter rest or dry period. In fact when he did. The flowers buds have blasted. Hope he will chime in when he sees this thread.

Also contradictory is that JPMC adds lime as a top dress to his mix. And since its in a basket says it falls out as it breaks down, so mix stays relatively fresh over time.
 
from seeing here and from vendors who have come to our shows selling armeniacum, there seem to be the usual group of them that are probably more closely resembling plants with genes being presented in the wild. these plants seem to prefer having a cold/bright winter, and be fairly dry. however, there are ones that are most likely improved varieties that have come out of flask, and selection has removed some of the need for a cold/dry/bright winter, and they are vigorous and fairly healthy year 'round whether or not they have a cooler and such winter. main street orchids from pennsylvania who comes to the rochester ny show has a clone that is fairly vigorous and doesn't seem to need so much of the winter rest.

if there is some doubt, you could always try the cooler, brighter winter, if things don't seem to be doing well, otherwise. my piece of main street's plants (purchased two different times) seems to be fairly tolerant of my treatment of it. mealybugs decimated my first piece, which was growing and putting out shoots very nicely, and the second one is doing fine though being somewhat mistreated this summer. other clones that I had purchased from rice's orchids years ago were not so vigorous or happy in the winter with normal treatment, and are all in orchid-heaven. i'm sure jim's plants were all more closely-related to wild gene combinations

I have no idea of the history of my seedlings Charles. One is a selfing, the other is a sib cross and the one in the mail...who knows? I'm fairly confident they were crosses made here or at least in the West from older clones due to their names so they could be 3rd or 4th generation??
 
.
They are at their best when the mix has started to break down as oppose to fresh at least in my experience and plants.
That's interesting

I believe JPMC armeniacum doesn't get any winter rest or dry period. In fact when he did. The flowers buds have blasted. Hope he will chime in when he sees this thread
.

I've noticed that plants grown under lights often do better than in a greenhouse with natural light. Whether thats because they get more total hours or more ultraviolet light I don't know. I think I remember reading that glass absorbs most of the ultraviolet light but I never paid much attention to it because my other plants have always done ok.
Tanaka does mention that even though we assume they need a dry period in the habitat, he never lets the mix dry out and keeps a saucer with water under the pot all year. But he says they need a drop in temp to initiate flowering. But JPMC doesn't so??
 
One thing that was intriguing from the field data was how light levels went up dramatically during the colder parts of the year, and down during the heat. In general armeniacum and micranthum are two of the more cold adapted paph species. The hooks on the leaves of micranthum may be an adaptation to providing a means of frost insulation.

However, I recall from some of Leo's threads that getting temps down near freezing where not a necessity for either blooming or long term maintenance.

Yes from the information I can find they definately like bright light. Probably more than any other parvis. It seems micrathum has more in common with malipoense rather than armeniacum. Slightly warmer and more shade. In fact they apparently grow together in some areas.
Years ago before I even knew what a paph was, I had a micrathum which grew in a cold glasshouse. It went down to 5C in winter with full sun for about 4-5 hours per day. In summer it was shaded. It grew and flowered quite well until I decided to ''look after'' it better and killed it...
 
I love armeniacum. I have grown it for 30 years. That said, I have always been extraordinarily unsuccessful at it. My standard treatment is out doors Late April-late Oct/early Nov (Hurricane Sandy will bring it indoors early this year.) Indoors, in direct sun, dry (watered once a week), no fertilizer between Oct and Feb, in a cold room (usual temps drop to mid 50's...40's on very cold nights...every few years high 30's for a night). I have only bloomed it once, on a collected plant I had had for 12 years previously- which died the season after bloom. It was an exceptionally warm fall, and no other paphs spiked that season. I found the original collected plants introduced in the 80's to be very vigorous, producing many stolons and offshoots, even as they refused to bud. The last few decades have produced armeniacums that grow slower, less offshoots, less vigor. And still no blooms. But I still love it......
 
Since my name was mentioned, I thought I'd drop in. Was out of town until Monday late and have just barely caught up on other things around the house. I don't grow in a greenhouse, but if I had to I would not dry them out in winter or anytime. Situate them so that they are protected from the highest heat, I think they start failing at 95 F or so. Shade in summer to avoid excess heat. Sun on a plastic pot can cook roots, so set the armeniacum pot into a taller and larger diameter clay pot. Leave the void between the armeniacum pot and the clay pot empty. The air space provides insulation. The clay pot should be tall enough that the sun can not shine directly on the plastic pot. This will help keep the roots from being overheated by the sun. Those are my thoughts on greenhouse growing.

I will add how I grow armeniacum, because maybe you will see 'the trick' or the difference between what I do and what your greenhouse does.

I have a room that grows armeniacum beautifully. I have some 10 or 15 different clones, at least 4 I have kept alive for over 20 years. One I picked up in 1987. So I guess I have a little experience. ;) While I keep them alive, they do take their time about blooming. I would say most of mine take 4 or 5 years to mature a growth and bloom at the quickest. Single growth plants can poke along for a decade without blooming. Virtually 100% of my armeniacum are divisions of originally collected material, none of mine are from seed. I do have divisions of 2 different awarded armeniacums, some of the collected clones are very nice. All are at least charming.

I grow under lights in a basement. For armeniacum I keep it in the brightest region (directly under in the middle of the shelf), of the light stand with T5's in my 'cold room'. This room is a former coal cellar, no heat ducts in this room. Bare concrete floors and concrete walls. So the humidity is up and the temps are cool compared to the rest of the basement. In winter it can get as cool as 55 F or roughly 13 C. Which is not that cold, more an intermediate temperature. During the day in winter, when the lights are on, the heat of the T5's does bring the temperature up at least 10 F (up about 6 C). I grow my micranthum in the same room, but on a shelf with T12 shop lights, so the light is less than the intensity that the armeniacums are getting. Lights are on 18 hours per day, 365/yr.

In summer this room gets warmer, as the house does not have central air conditioning. But since it is a basement, it rarely gets over 90 F (32 C). In summer it does not cool down as nicely as I would like it to. This year in particular night time temps were over 80 F (26 C) for at least one month. This is bad for cool growing orchids, the armeniacum and micranthum did not seem to mind, I would not class them as cool growers. They tolerate cool, they don't need it the way a Masdevallia might. Look at their home climate, warm wet, rainy summers, with August being particularly warm, even at night. Cool and somewhat dry winters, but remember, these are mountain plants, they might not get daily rain in winter, but they do get fog, or dew, this condensation can be substantial, and would keep the mosses and soils they grow in at least lightly damp all winter, even if there is no rain.

A couple things I do that I think help. I use as small a pot as I can get away with, most of my armeniacums are 1 to 3 growths in 2.5 x 2.5 x 4 inch tall pots. I try to repot at least once every 2 years. If you rot the roots off, it takes forever to put roots back on. Best for me is to repot once a year, but that doesn't always happen. Never delay repotting so long the mix breaks down. Sometimes I grow directly in Yi-Xing pots, just to be 'artsy'. Have a division of armeniacum 'Birchwood' FCC/AOS growing in a basket with nothing but New Zealand Sphagnum moss. It was a small single growth fragment with no roots, now leaf span is about 7 inches, and a new growth is peaking up near the edge of the basket. If I had the room, I would put more paphs in baskets, but they don't work well under lights for mechanical/logistical reasons.

I do not dry them out in winter. They seem to do best if you keep the mix lightly damp, and water again before it goes to dry. I don't keep them wet. The tall pots hold less water than a wider & shorter pot. The mix doesn't stay too wet.

I use a fine mix, particle size between 1/8th and 1/2 inch. I use a hardware cloth screen to eliminate big particles, and a coarse window screen to eliminate the fines. My mix is roughly 2 parts fir bark, 1 part coconut husk chunks, 1 part perlite and 1 part charcoal. I sift / shake over the screens, then mix the components, then add enough water to wet the mix. Then I add roughly 1/4 part sand, fine play sand or pool filter sand. Mix it up, let it stand over night and mix again. The sand will stick to the particles. This is my general mix. As I repot, the lime loving species get a tablespoon or so sprinkled on top of their mix of crushed oystershell and/or horticultural grade lime, I don't mix this in, just let it sit on top. Then I water them and put them back under the lights. (sand is from suggestion by Ernie Gemeinhart, and I get real nice roots, especially on my brachys)

I'm using MSU fertilizer at 1/4 teaspoon per gallon continuously, every time I water. This is about 75 ppm as Nitrogen. I plant to switch to K-Lite as soon as I use up the 25 lbs bag of regular MSU that I bought last year. It is almost gone. Yes, I have enough plants that I do use 20 to 25 pounds a year of fertilizer.

That's it, no tricks really. They grow for me, though they definitely are slower than most species. This is the reason I have so many clones of armeniacum. Since they are so slow, by having 10 or 15 of them I do get to see one or two bloom every year. So the solution to slow growing plants is get a bunch of them. :evil: Easy with armeniacum & micranthum, but you would need a lot of space if you were to do this with stonei or sanderianum.

armeniacum-Birchwood-AM-Nov2006a.jpg
 
I was quite unsuccesfull with armeniacums untill I started using very open baskets with quite open mix...i think that they need a lot of air at roots level...so also they like lot of water but fast dry out....
 
Leo, i have a 2 growth division of your 'Birchwood' clone. I have it in a small 4" pot with fine fir bark mix and top dressed with sphagnum to keep in moisture.

I grow it right next to a couple micranthum. But basically the same treatment as the rest of my Paphs....somewhat bright light, intermediate temps year-round, and water usually once per week with 50/50 RO and tapwater, with 1/2 tsp of a homemade version of K-Lite. It grows slowly but is currently putting out new leafs so it seems happy.

I recently started adding a kelp product into my feeding rotation, so maybe that will help with kicking out more roots.
 
Leo, i have a 2 growth division of your 'Birchwood' clone. I have it in a small 4" pot with fine fir bark mix and top dressed with sphagnum to keep in moisture.

I grow it right next to a couple micranthum. But basically the same treatment as the rest of my Paphs....somewhat bright light, intermediate temps year-round, and water usually once per week with 50/50 RO and tapwater, with 1/2 tsp of a homemade version of K-Lite. It grows slowly but is currently putting out new leafs so it seems happy.

I recently started adding a kelp product into my feeding rotation, so maybe that will help with kicking out more roots.

Your conditions sound good. I was thinking of adding kelp into my regimen. I was just reporting what I do now. I bloomed armeniacum under normal T12 shop lights in the past, and would get blooms occasionally. They grow so slow that by the time the armeniacum responds to something you did, you have forgotten all about what you changed. So it is hard to be sure of cause and effect. Really difficult to refine one's culture technique. Fortunately, it really does seem they don't need anything very 'different' than a rothschildianum seedling.

I really think sun on the plastic pots over-heating roots is an issue for greenhouse and window sill growers that are having trouble with this species.

By the way, for those that don't know, armeniacum 'Birchwood' FCC/AOS is a clone shown by Dick Clements, the year he died, he got 2 FCC's, one to micranthum and one to armeniacum. Then several months later the 'big grabber' heart attack killed him. Dick is the one that got the award. Fox Valley bought the plant, this division came to me through several sets of hands. So it isn't 'mine' as I am not the exhibitor who got the FCC. I am happy to own a division. It is still a nice one, often 10+ cm in natural spread, even though it is an early award to armeniacum.
 
Leo

Are you using the MSU pure water or well water version.

If I recall correctly you have a fairly hard high alkaline water.

Although I think you would see faster growth with less K, I think you may loose the benefit of slightly higher ammonia residuals (better for high alkaline systems) with the other form of MSU.

If you are using RO or dilute well/tap water then by all means you can shift to K lite and should be able to stop the top dressing with lime/ Ca carbonate products.

If you want to keep using a high alkaline system then maybe use K lite at 1/8 tsp/gal with a touch of ammonium nitrate.
 
Thanks Leo for so much detailed info. The more we get the more little bits of information we can find relevent to our own conditions. So far we see that people are growing them in all kinds of ways and its not so easy to extract that special technique we need. For example with bellatulum it has finally sunk in why I kept losing roots or having poor development. Several books I have say its necessary to keep them cool... WRONG! Yes they like cooler nights during the dormant season, but they need to be kept dry at the roots or they rot immediately but during the growing period they like phalaenopsis conditions or hotter. When you look at concolor, it's interesting to see that although it grows with bellatulum, it also grows in many other areas and habitats so its obviously much more adaptable than bellatulum and this bares out in cultivation. I think my mistake was watering too much and too early in spring when they (bellatulum) are just waking up (thats always a good root rotting season). You can get a week of warm weather then 2 weeks of winter again.--so easy to make a mistake during that time! But in summer when its really hot, you can pour on the water. So now I feel (a bit) more confident with bellatulum. Now for armeniacum...................
 

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