Why don't some of you actually READ my book?

[Bolero]

Its interesting to read your message above. If you don't mind, I would like to know the name of your book.

The Paphiopedilum Grower's Manual by Lance Birk.

It's a great book.

 

[bio_lover]

Thank you so much Lance Burke.

 

[Lance Birk]

Interesting confession session!!!

I do appreciate your favorable comments about my book, and thanks. I also understand the realities of life and how we just have to read something for the 3rd time (at times) just to let it sink in. I've done that myself. And the comments about the variations of life and environments is certainly true, as are the exceptions to rules. Such as they are.

But I'm also wondering about ones self-confidence in their own ability to just plain understand what they see, in their own growing area. This really isn't rocket science, it's just plain science. We water: plants get wet. Then, how do they dry off? We give light: Is it too much or not enough? You can see it for yourself..... right? We give air: Is it enough or not enough?

Seems easy....

We humans can learn. And that is the reason for my first question. A few posters here might just need a little confidence boost, so...... here it is!

But sorry Bolero, to the back of the class for you.........

It's BIRK.

.....On your belly and give me 50!

 

[Bolero]

Thank you so much Lance Burke.

Really unnecessary.

 

[Bolero]

Interesting confession session!!!

I do appreciate your favorable comments about my book, and thanks. I also understand the realities of life and how we just have to read something for the 3rd time (at times) just to let it sink in. I've done that myself. And the comments about the variations of life and environments is certainly true, as are the exceptions to rules. Such as they are.

But I'm also wondering about ones self-confidence in their own ability to just plain understand what they see, in their own growing area. This really isn't rocket science, it's just plain science. We water: plants get wet. Then, how do they dry off? We give light: Is it too much or not enough? You can see it for yourself..... right? We give air: Is it enough or not enough?

Seems easy....

We humans can learn. And that is the reason for my first question. A few posters here might just need a little confidence boost, so...... here it is!

But sorry Bolero, to the back of the class for you.........

It's BIRK.

.....On your belly and give me 50!

Yes sorry about the spelling, I realised just after that I had made a mistake and have now corrected it.

You are right, I think to some extent it is about confidence in our own judgements. I think time growing them helps with that.

 

[Rick]

I guess something else to discuss, is what constitutes success?

More are surviving than dying?

Overall low collection mortality rates?

Zero mortality?

100% of plants grow to flowering specimen plants?

Plants grow from seedling to flower in 3 years?

Every plant would recieve an AOS quality or cultural award?

I think the bulk of us are confident enough to say we are up to level 2, but many are pushing for greater levels of success, which I think requires experience, experimentation, and collaboration outside of reading texts. Maybe even some good luck (we can't control the weather, and can't control the genetics of our purchases). Much of growing is like driving a car. You have to be able to "read" the upcoming conditions and respond as you go. Beginning drivers can read all the text they want, but until they gain experience reading the observed conditions, they are not expert drivers.

 

[cnycharles]

very good analogy. i've gotten to three, which I'm proud of, though that doesn't mean that some that haven't died are happy (eek), or that we give away all those that will die eventually if we don't pull the trigger now! things would be much better if the last few years weren't plagued by the creepy crawly things and it was easier to spray them or otherwise kill the bugs. when I was first in an orchid society, I took three plants I had to a club meeting. a well-known vendor remarked that I had very nice culture for my plants. it may have been, but until that point I had never had insects infest my plants. at some point not long after that they made their appearance and being at a loss and not being crazy or knowledgeable about what or how to spray, things went downhill. also having more plants means less time to scout or do what needs to be done when something is at issue...

there needs to be a 'mealy nuke-gun'

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

Lance, I love your book and still refer to it frequently. But, in all fairness, you yourself stated (in a primulinum thread) that modern breeding has changed the species from the original collected forms....either through hidden or forgotten hybridizing, or simple line bred selection of traits. Our modern post CITES paphs may very well behave differently from their wild ancestors. (On a side note, it seems that I used to have better luck in the past with wild collected plants..my original venustum, while small, lasted maybe 20 years....the new ones I can't keep alive more than 2 years..and I strongly suspect that the insigne I have been growing since 1982 was from a collected plant.) Since most paph species are no longer like their wild progenitors, their culture is probably different also. Not to mention that all of us grow under different conditions....a windowsill in NYC is quite different from a shadehouse in California...or a greenhouse anywhere. I can do what I can to emulate proper growing conditions for parvis...but I'll have settle for delanatii being the only reliable one, while growers in the Pacific northwest find them all to be easy. Take care, Eric

 

[Roth]

Lance, I love your book and still refer to it frequently. But, in all fairness, you yourself stated (in a primulinum thread) that modern breeding has changed the species from the original collected forms....either through hidden or forgotten hybridizing, or simple line bred selection of traits. Our modern post CITES paphs may very well behave differently from their wild ancestors.

Lance book is extremely interesting. In fact in his potting mix chapter, he points out about two things, the use of sheet moss, and the use of sand in the potting mix, Interestingly ehough, sheet moss is far more successful than sphagnum, and the multiflorals love to have a bit of sand in their mix, the roots exactly follow the sandy areas, as Lance said.

Thus said, a lot of the species in the trade are still jungle collected, no one should be fooled to think that all plants are art propagated. emersonii, malipoense, armeniacum, micranthum, haynaldianum, most of the blooming size plants are jungle collected, cultivated plants. sangii, mastersianum... it is possible to name a lot.

Of course there are some sib self crosses sold, but some are maybe not truly from seed - like some of the micranthum as an example... and most of the 'generic' species are coming from the wild. a micranthum without proven parentage is from the wild. A blooming size mastersianum, sangii, violascens, zieckianum, etc... is from the wild. ciliolare, anitum, adductum, randsii... when they are blooming size they are 100% jungle collected, with a few exceptions - violascens has been marginally propagated, sangii as well, but the bulk of the trade is made of jungle plants.

 

[Lance Birk]

Eric,

I believe all jungle collected plants have that "jungle vigor," something that stays with them for several years. You know what it is. I also believe that it often stays within the root zone until that next repotting, and then it usually seems to vanish. I think these orchids retain a Mycorrhiza but then the plant either rejects (kills) it or we otherwise lose it through ignorance of how to maintain it's presence.

But best practices of culture can then provide a climate and the opportunity for those plants to continue to prosper and to propagate. In that regard, a grower once told me that a "good grower is one who successfuly cultivates his plant for at least 5 years, and at the end of that time the plant is in better condition than when he got it." Seems like a good criteria to me.

I do not believe that the very fact of hybridization automatically will improve the sustainability of an orchid. It does, in some cases. But you yourself can make the comparison between one of those jungle-collected plants, and any one of your hybridized plants. I think you already have that answer

My paph book is all about culture and in the second half it details how to provide the techniques and the conditions for paphiopedilums. It was when those 1980s paph growers began to introduce the ideas from my book into their growing arena, that cattleyas, oncidiums, phalaenopsis and all the other genera of orchids suddenly began to respond positively under the new conditions of growing. This, to me, shows that it is more important to provide the proper conditions and techniques of growing, than it is to find "the EXACT' conditions for each and every different species of orchids.

Don't you agree?

 

[Rick]

Thus said, a lot of the species in the trade are still jungle collected, no one should be fooled to think that all plants are art propagated. emersonii, malipoense, armeniacum, micranthum, haynaldianum, most of the blooming size plants are jungle collected, cultivated plants. sangii, mastersianum... it is possible to name a lot.

Blooming size plants start as seedlings, and take about 5 or so years to get to blooming size.

I have seen the flasks of emersonii, malipoense, armeniacum, micranthum, haynaldianum in the US purchased started seedlings from them and now 5 years later they are blooming size.

As an example I have a 3 growth emersonii that a purchased as a seedling from Orchid babies about 5 years ago that came out of a flask from Paphinatics. Similarly a stonei that I posted blooming pictures of this past spring. It's just about impossible to find a jungle collected rothchildianum in the US for sale, and they are considered inferior to the intraspecific crosses that are out there now. There are so many sanderianum seedlings on the market now that you can get NBS plants for about $100 now. And recently a forum member showed "compot flats" of blooming tigrinums. In the US seed propagation is not that big a deal, and a lot of people are raising seedlings in decent numbers.

The South Pacific stuff like sangii, wentworthianum, and masterianum is stuff tough to grow, and I don't see either a lot of seedlings or adult plants offered for sale.

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

Lance, I thoroughly agree....and Sanderianum- I certainly agree with what you say about the wild origins of many plants...but here in the US, many (obviously, not the newer species) species are available as seedlings...I know, because those are the only ones I can afford. My violascens and mastersianums were all small seedlings..and the violascens seedlings probably cost as much if not more than the collected plants I bought from Richard Topper 20 years ago (at least one as "papuanum"). They actually bloomed, or at least spiked for me...My volonteanums are seedlings (one is obviously a charlesworthii...you get these things with seedlings...)..so is my 3" wide emersonii...Parentage is rarely given, but a seedling is a seedling. Take care, Eric

 

[joan]

What book are you talking about? The name is not mentioned anywhere I can see?

 

[Roth]

I have seen the flasks of emersonii, malipoense, armeniacum, micranthum, haynaldianum in the US purchased started seedlings from them and now 5 years later they are blooming size.

Definitely yes, but many sellers still offer precultivated jungle plants of micranthum, malipoense, armeniacum, emersonii... They are cheaper than any flask.

There are so many sanderianum seedlings on the market now that you can get NBS plants for about $100 now. And recently a forum member showed "compot flats" of blooming tigrinums. In the US seed propagation is not that big a deal, and a lot of people are raising seedlings in decent numbers.

It comes to a big deal when a multigrowth jungle, precultivated sanderianum 2-3 growths is sold by the Taiwaneses for 80USD wholesale. Some customers will want that kind of plants...

Lance, I thoroughly agree....and Sanderianum- I certainly agree with what you say about the wild origins of many plants...but here in the US, many (obviously, not the newer species) species are available as seedlings...I know, because those are the only ones I can afford. My violascens and mastersianums were all small seedlings..and the violascens seedlings probably cost as much if not more than the collected plants I bought from Richard Topper 20 years ago (at least one as "papuanum"). They actually bloomed, or at least spiked for me...My volonteanums are seedlings (one is obviously a charlesworthii...you get these things with seedlings...)..so is my 3" wide emersonii...Parentage is rarely given, but a seedling is a seedling. Take care, Eric

Yes, there are hobbyists who grow from seed their plants to blooming size. But look at that one - the seller, who is on that forum, has not enough experience to know that those plants are jungle collected at all, and has been cheated by his supplier for sure, but I know it first hand, as I know his supplier, and the supplier of that supplier, and even some of the collectors of that supplier:

Wild-collected dayanum

Wild-collected volonteanum

Wild-collected ciliolare

Wild-collected sugiyamanum

Wild-collected stonei

more jungle stonei

More

Basically, the price of a jungle volonteanum - USD4 will always be cheaper than flasking, growing for 2-5 years, etc... A jungle stonei sells at present time in Malaysia for USD 2-4. Of course the flowers are crappy, but they are 'genuine' stonei... And anyway, I think that many Taiwanese stonei are not really stonei...

Most blooming size mastersianum in the US offered for sale are wild, cultivated plants. Taiwan sells precultivated jungle mastersianum for USD6. Of course there are flasks of many, if not most species, but I have yet to see a company offering blooming size, seed-grown volonteanum so far. The seedlings of that kind of species are sold as young plant most of the time, as they are quite a lot in demand... So most growers do not have blooming size volonteanum from seed to offer.

 

[NYEric]

Does "wild collected" mean damaging to wild or illegal or just possibly prone to disease?

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

Sanderianum- what do you mean by "precultivated"? Do you mean a wild collected plant that has grown and been divided? Technically, those would be OK by CITES (assuming that the parent was collected and originally propagated in its country of origin...theoretically, that is..not like its likely to be provable). Also, having grown on would allow the plant to adapt to cultivation. To most of us, wild collected means dug up, shipped out, potted up. To me, a plant that has been grown long enough to divide is a propagated plant..I would consider it "wild", or "natural", but its still propagated. Take care, Eric

 

[Jimsox]

What Book?!?!?!?!?!???

 

[kentuckiense]

For those that do not know what book Lance wrote:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=lance+birk+book

oke:

 

[cnycharles]

funny how when I was looking for a used copy of the second version and did a search, one vendor I think had new ones for $65, and used ones listed for over $100!

 

[nikv]

I've had this book for longer than I can remember. One of the first books on orchids that I've purchased. It has a copyright date of 1983. Couldn't find anything to identify which edition it is. Anyone know? It's a very good book. My copy has a brown cover with a rothschildianum drawing on the cover.