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Well this is bold...

Discussion in 'For Sale/Trade' started by xiphius, Oct 28, 2018.

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  1. Oct 28, 2018 #1

    xiphius

    xiphius

    xiphius

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    To my knowledge, Paph rungsuriyanum is still very much illegal in the US... and yet here is someone blatantly selling one (from within the US) on EBay... a very ballsy move. If they know enough to know what they've got and how to grow it, I have to assume they also know that it is illegal.

    I'd love to see this one legally imported one day (hopefully within my lifetime :p).

    [​IMG]

    link
     
  2. Oct 28, 2018 #2

    xiphius

    xiphius

    xiphius

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    I sent the seller a polite message and they took it down with the following...

    "Hi Sir
    This is new species and I do grow them in my labs and propagate at backyard
    However i was not aware of the regulations I definitely can remove them from selling if this is against the law
    Thanks for letting me know"
     
  3. Oct 28, 2018 #3

    Ozpaph

    Ozpaph

    Ozpaph

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    The language suggests they may not be in the USA.
    I doubt " he has labs and grows in backyard" in Penn.
     
  4. Oct 29, 2018 #4

    xiphius

    xiphius

    xiphius

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    I suppose this might be an error in EBay's system. However, all the info I sent pertained specifically to the US and it's interpretation of CITES. I also mentioned that they were at risk of getting slapped with a very substantial fine from the "US Fish and Wildlife service". They didn't mention anything about not being in the US and simply removed the posting instead. I would think the easier solution, if the location was in error, would be to simply change the posting over.

    I agree that it is unlikely that they have an illegal rungsuriyanum factory in their backyard in Pennsylvania, but the other option is that the plants were grown/propagated elsewhere (family or elsewhere in Vietnam) and then some of them slipped through the cracks and are now being sold here. Many airport searches are surprisingly superficial.

    Or maybe they just got scared... :p
     
  5. Oct 29, 2018 #5

    troy

    troy

    troy

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    no hatred!!
    I think if it made it here, the logical thing to do is propagate it asap!!
     
  6. Oct 29, 2018 #6

    xiphius

    xiphius

    xiphius

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    I would agree that perpetuating it would be nice, but sadly the US's current interpretation of CITES wouldn't make the flasks (or any offspring/hybrids) any less illegal :(. They would only be legal if you could prove that the parent plant was legal...

    I fear that having a bunch of illegal plants floating around would only make matters worse for those who may be trying to get it here legally (not sure anyone is working on this one yet since it is so new).
     
  7. Oct 29, 2018 #7

    Tom-DE

    Tom-DE

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    "sadly the US's current interpretation of CITES wouldn't make the flasks (or any offspring/hybrids) any less illegal :(. They would only be legal if you could prove that the parent plant was legal..."

    That is correct!

    "I fear that having a bunch of illegal plants floating around would only make matters worse for those who may be trying to get it here legally....."

    I agree!
     
  8. Oct 29, 2018 #8

    troy

    troy

    troy

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    no hatred!!
    It would make no sense to destroy it, if a plant is endangered, it would seem that duplicating it, (making more from one) would be sensible.... I don't care, this plant bullshit, I'm getting out of orchid growing, this is bullshit!!!
     
  9. Oct 29, 2018 #9

    ehanes7612

    ehanes7612

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    from what I understand , if it were confiscated, the plant is taken to one of a few designated greenhouses in the country that take care of CITES confiscated plants
     
  10. Oct 29, 2018 #10

    xiphius

    xiphius

    xiphius

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    I am not, and never was, saying that it should be destroyed. That's just ridiculous. If this person really does have this plant, I hope it grows well and flourishes for them! However, I also don't think it's right for people to use EBay to sell illegal orchids to others who may, or may not, be aware of their legal status (and also subvert growers trying to follow the law and bring in new species legally). This just passes the danger of fines and retribution on to others. A lot of people would probably just assume it's legal because it's on EBay. I believe EBay's official policy is that it is up to the individual seller to follow the law...

    I couldn't agree with you more! Ultimately, I think it would be wise for the US to reconsider its position on the legality of artificially propagated material and start interpreting CITES in a way that might actually benefit species preservation. We all know that's not about to happen anytime soon though :p. I don't want to reignite an old argument about the pros and cons of CITES. I know this has already been discussed at length on this forum (more than once :p).

    Lol. If only it was that easy to throw in the towel... :rollhappy:
     
  11. Oct 30, 2018 #11

    Tom-DE

    Tom-DE

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    That is correct. and then any of the plants from seed propagation(of the illegal plant) will be legal in U.S. and such a purchase normally comes with certified papers at the beginning. Bob from AnTec lab(?) was one of those people/nurseries if I remember it right.

    Normally they do that in conjunction with U.S. custom/U.S. Fish and Wildlife..........
     
  12. Oct 30, 2018 #12

    troy

    troy

    troy

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    no hatred!!
    Thats news to me, cites conficated plants go to a greenhouse, thats a good start, I was under the impression they were destroyed as an illegal contraband
     
  13. Oct 30, 2018 #13

    xiphius

    xiphius

    xiphius

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    That's interesting! I didn't realize that CITES seizures made them "legal" for propagation purposes.
     
  14. Oct 30, 2018 #14

    xiphius

    xiphius

    xiphius

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    Apparently the seller didn't get the message... he just listed a Paph canhii (also available from within the US).

    I am debating messaging him again, but at the same time, I hate being "that guy" ... >_<

    [​IMG]

    It also looks like this one may have been wild collected. That is an awfully large plant to have been from flask... this makes me sad... :/
     
  15. Oct 30, 2018 #15

    Tom-DE

    Tom-DE

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    Well, you were doing the right thing and doing him/her a big favorite...

    Apparently this person has no knowledge about CITES. Saying he/she is doing lab propagation, that is a totally BS. Anyone who knows enough about orchid propagation would have known/heard about CITES at some degree.

    Those are illegal plants in U.S. If this person is selling wild collected plants...that is more disappointing.

    I wonder what other highly desirable new species currently this person is "growing in the lab" in PA.?
     
  16. Oct 30, 2018 #16

    Tom-DE

    Tom-DE

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    Well, that is one of the solutions and seemingly it is a logical and cheap one......the agreement/whole procedure is more complicated than you would think... and they don't do that for all of the seized illegal plants or wildlife.
     
  17. Oct 30, 2018 #17

    xiphius

    xiphius

    xiphius

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    Well, maybe they did get the message...

    I hadn't sent them anything about the canhii listing yet, but I did notice that they took it down pretty quickly due to "an error in the posting"

    ...shortly after removing the posting, they sent me another message -

    "Dear Sir
    I just to say thank you again to remind me about the law so I can avoid unnecessary trouble. I appreciated your help.
    I am also a new hobby seller so I didn’t have much experience. I saw them (nursery in Vietnam) growing the plants so I assume it was legal but I was not sure if they have legal paper for it. There specy is so rare that they are not available for sale if people didn’t propagate them.
    I am requesting the company where The plants was from, to provide papers and CITES for their parent plants, in the mean time I will remove the ad
    It will be only posted when I have legal papers to avoid hassle for my buyers
    Again, I appreciate your help"

    Optimistic, but misguided since I highly doubt any export permits exist for these really new species...

    However, I responded -
    "No problem! This hobby definitely has a steep learning curve. If you could get legal export/import permits for these plants, then it would be wonderful to see them introduced into the US (I am afraid that export documents may not exist for the really new species though). I know a lot of people would be interested in buying them if they were brought over legally. I wish you all the best with your orchid growing/selling endeavors."

    Hopefully that is the end of it...
     
  18. Oct 30, 2018 #18

    Hien

    Hien

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    I believe the explanation about the propagation statement the person made "that the species is rare enough that peoples propagate them", if you read this old article posted 7 or 8 years ago, it seems to already confirm the rarity at the time.

    The minority highlanders when they go out hunting in the forest etc for their own food supply, if they see a plant, a bulb, an animal whatever, that they think someone would be interested in purchase , they will bring it back, it not necessary be an orchid ( the chinese herbalists bought many precious herbs from Vietnam for dirt cheap for this reason, there are times, when the highlanders did not know much about the real value of the plants, the chinese came in and bought literally tons of orchids for practically the price of a cup of coffee in the US ) orchids from the forest to sell to anyone is common place, there are road side stands, I can find some you tube (however they are in Vietnamese).
    Also the collectors & nurseries in Vietnam do not raise any things in green houses close environment insect proof, fungus free, virus free such as gigantic operation in Taiwan, Holland .
    All expose to natural environment, rain or shine, sometimes just hanging on trees.
    The better ones may be have fenced space and maybe some screen overhead, that is all .
    Don't expect anything look pristine and unblemished . I doubt anyone can tell whether a plant is propagated or bought from the highlanders. Either of them would look better in the hand of someone who baby the plants. The more natural they raised , the stronger yet tattered they look (compare a farmer in the midwest, a fisherman down in Louisiana & the Upper west side NYC person and you get the idea) They don't grow orchids inside the house the way we do here.
    This is an old STF article:
    http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21670
    I thought the extract below may be of interest. The full report (22p) can be found on the Rufford website.

    ASSESSMENT OF DISTRIBUTION AND NATURAL STATUS OF PAPHIOPEDILUM CANHII, VIETNAM

    First information about existence of Paphiopedilum canhii come from northwestern Vietnam. In fact P. canhii was firstly observed in sale on local markets in Dien Bien and Son La cities. This fact with high probability indicates northwestern part of Vietnam in limits of Dien Bien and Son La provinces, as well as allied regions of Laos as most probable native area of the species.

    Paphiopedilum canhii was described on the base of few plants that were brought from remote mountain area at the end of 2009 by H’Mong (Meo) people to office of “Civilian Governmental Service for Care of Natural Resources and Connections with Local Minorities” (Natural Resources Governance, CARE International in Vietnam). At the office, plants were received by Service Officer – Mr. Chu Xuan Canh, who kept plants for further study and description.

    Regrettably all discovered and studied subpopulations to moment of our exploration were already tragically depleted by commercial collecting. In our studies during December 2010 was found no one intact colony. Absolute majority of colonies in all 5 subpopulations were extinguished completely and only occasionally in most inaccessible cliffs were observed poor remains in form of single commonly depressed or juvenile specimens (Fig. 37-50). Plants were exactly collected just recently, certainly few months before our studies and many cliffs still retained numerous sad traces of former majestic species abundance. Very rarely few remained mature plants were observed in places of former many numbered colonies. Proportion of such plants may reach 30% (Fig. 55). However this is alone observed example. In all other cases plants are eliminated from colonies on 99 to 100% (Fig. 51-54). Total extinction of plants during 2009-2010 year may be estimated as at least 99%. At the same time the number of surviving mature (flower-sized) specimens in all subpopulations hardly exceeds presently 0.01% of former species population. Such unique relicts are presented on Fig. 38-50. As commercial collecting still can not be stop immediately, these are, probably, last photos of P. canhii in nature.

    Hard exploitation of Paphiopedilum canhii started immediately after its discovery in middle of 2009 year. Most probably species was at first found by H’Mong (Meo) local people and collected along with other orchids for their regular sale in local markets of Dien Bien and Son La cities. Very distinct unusual slipper orchid was highly valued by local orchid lovers and fanciers just immediately after its appearance in orchid market. In few weeks rumours on intriguing new species speeded widely reaching Ha Noi and other large cities of northern Vietnam. First flowers of mysterious plant were open at the beginning of 2010 in a number of private collections in Ha Noi, Dien Bien and Son La cities. At this moment become clear that orchid society met one more new exciting slipper orchid species. Next days internet was filled with images of new flower.

    At this time price for flowering plants reached its maximum. Illustrated publication of new species in world-known American Orchid Society Magazine also activated market demands and supported fast cost rise. Additionally, participation in the trade of foreign dealers provided much highest influence to the market price dynamics. Numerous international dealers arrive in spring 2010 to Son La and Dien Bien cities for trading. Best plant clones at this time were traded by costs up to 100 USD for alone plant. Largest lots of plants were supposedly imported to Taiwan.

    Strong rumours about high prices for plants provoked true orchid fever in the area of Paphiopedilum canhii. All people from neighboring villages layaway their each day home duties and come to the forest looking for a plants. In some days more than 20 people collected plants in dream to sell them for high price. Naturally high supply of plants on the market for sale, immediately exceeded demands. Very soon after plant flowering period price come down to 100 and then 50 USD per kg.

    To the end of 2010 the cost was only 10-20 USD for 1 kg, but even for these costs trade was very weak and most not sold plants were simply trashed. Ironically the collecting of great majority of plants was fruitless. They bring no money to local people, no profit to local or international trade, no happiness to orchid lovers all over the world. These last specimens of unique critically endangered species that stands on verge of full extinction were simply wasted (Fig. 151). Low level of horticulture and lack of necessary experience in slipper orchid cultivation permit no long cultivation P. canhii in local collections and nurseries. So even large flowering size plants actually have no chance to survive in conditions of primitive agriculture (Fig. 151-154). To the end of 2010 trade of P. canhii actually completely exhausted due to 3 main reasons: - no more demands from foreign dealers (they already bought best clones necessary for propagation and breeding); - no more demands from domestic purchasers (due to hard difficulties in plant cultivation in primitive conditions); - very few plants in nature (that make their search and collecting unprofitable).

    According to very approximate estimation 25-35 kg of P. canhii samples were collected during short history of its discovery, exploitation and extinction. Plants are fairly small when 1 kg contains about 300-350 mature (flowering-size) plants and commonly 200-300 offspring juvenile samples. Following to these calculations totally were collected at least 10.000-15.000 mature and juvenile specimens. Direct observation in nature indicates that about 99.5% of populations were extinguished in one year of exploitation. In our opinion species has no chance survive in nature. It is particularly true taking into consideration fast deforestation in its small native area.

    The Rufford Small Grant Foundation
    Leonid V. Averyanov

    Regards. Mick

    If we live in Vietnam we will not made a statement that " the orchid plant is illegal" (I don't think any orchid in Vietnam is illegal), it does not make any sense over there. besides, for a nursery over there to get what ever paper to satisfy the West would make no sense to them , let say the 1 dollar is the cost for 1 kg of orchids, and the paper work is 20 dollar or more .
     
  19. Oct 30, 2018 #19

    Tom-DE

    Tom-DE

    Tom-DE

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    I wonder why this person sent you another message since you didn't sent this person a message on the new listing. Is this person watching the postings here?

    I doubt this is the end of it...... I suspect it is too late now...... the men in black are knocking on the door now.:evil::poke: He/she can always play the dumb card.:D

    Stopping selling the plants is easy to do, but it doesn't get rid of the problem....Does this person know it is illegal to posses those plants in U.S.? Someone need to tell this person the story about Mr. kovach................
     
  20. Oct 31, 2018 #20

    xiphius

    xiphius

    xiphius

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    Oh yes, I am not arguing that these species shouldn't be artificially propagated and distributed. Sadly, loss of habitat is the most dire threat to slipper orchid species that are in danger. I fear that, in the future, some of these plants may only survive through ex situ conservation efforts (botanical gardens and cultivation in private collections).

    Lol. I dunno. Maybe? However, I also didn't respond to their initial response (I didn't see a need too since they were polite, seemed sincere, and removed the posting promptly). Perhaps they got scared by my silence and were afraid that I was going to rat them out :p

    Lol, well, if the men in black do come a knockin' I highly doubt it will be because of the posts here. They already did a pretty good job of advertising themselves by throwing it up on EBay - way more public than Slippertalk...

    Also, in my initial message to them I made it very clear that is illegal to both possess and/or sell without proper paperwork. I said...

    "...If the US Fish and Wildlife Service were to find this in your possession without proper documentation, then you would be subject to a very stiff fine (on the order of several thousand dollars) or possibly even prison time for CITES non-compliance..."

    Of course, if they do actually have the plant(s) then there isn't much they can do about it now. Talk about closing the barn door after the horse escapes...
     

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