Marco
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lienluu said:Here you go.
Toilet Bowl! Yeah!
rothschildianum "Borneo" - where did it come from?
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PHRAG said:
I want to see those native besseaes that Lien showed you before I answer that question. :evil:
L
lienluu
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Heather said:
Here are two. One is a photo by Chuck Ackers.
It is Phrag. besseae 'Cow Hollow II' FCC/AOS, a collected plant imported and shown by Pui Chin in the early 90s.
This is the other, one that was imported by Hans Burkhardt, also in the early 90s
P
PHRAG
Guest
Well see, it wouldn't matter what Lien showed you. Because for all intents and purposes, the top flower should not be growing in Peru.
I cheated a little by only showing you the flower (which most growers are all wrapped up in) but if you were to look at the plants you would see why.
The top flower is growing on a plant that puts out stolons. The bottom plant is growing in a clump. According to Olaf Gruss, Peruvian besseae=clump growing and Ecuadorian besseae=stolon growing. The fox valley has Ecuadorian besseae in it's genetics. So would you still dump it in Peru? It is "improved," who cares if it isn't "true?" Right?
I cheated a little by only showing you the flower (which most growers are all wrapped up in) but if you were to look at the plants you would see why.
The top flower is growing on a plant that puts out stolons. The bottom plant is growing in a clump. According to Olaf Gruss, Peruvian besseae=clump growing and Ecuadorian besseae=stolon growing. The fox valley has Ecuadorian besseae in it's genetics. So would you still dump it in Peru? It is "improved," who cares if it isn't "true?" Right?
paphioland
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I've heard the commander is mm possibility before too.lienluu said:
paphioland
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you can't stop "progress" and I use that term loosely. Or the human desire for progress. You also can't stop people from trying to stop progress. I know that made no sense
Wild collected plants are still desirable especially in plants like roths in the hopes of finding some new genetic trait that is desirable. The problem is your kind of thinking COULD lead some to collect wild plants which none of us want! It is better to know that somewhere out there a beautiful wild roth exists but that we have beautiful roths that are line breed too with out having to go to Mt Kinabalu and rip out 5000 roths if there are that many left to find one.
Also who says human breeding is unatural? What's the difference between a human and an insect pollinating orchids are we not natural. Is the human mind unnatural?
The Rex x MM cross could have happened in the wild. Also if you go to The orchid inn or OZ when it is roth season I am sure they would be glad to sell you one of Roths that "looks wild" for cheap too. I have a crappy rex x MM that I bought for less then 50 $ just for the heck of it. I know at the OZ you can get one for 50 $ if you go there.
I like hybridizing and I see nothing wrong with it. I agree reintroducing hybridized plants is prob not a good idea. That I guess you could call "unnatural".
Just my rambling for what its worth. prob not a whole lot.
Wild collected plants are still desirable especially in plants like roths in the hopes of finding some new genetic trait that is desirable. The problem is your kind of thinking COULD lead some to collect wild plants which none of us want! It is better to know that somewhere out there a beautiful wild roth exists but that we have beautiful roths that are line breed too with out having to go to Mt Kinabalu and rip out 5000 roths if there are that many left to find one.
Also who says human breeding is unatural? What's the difference between a human and an insect pollinating orchids are we not natural. Is the human mind unnatural?
The Rex x MM cross could have happened in the wild. Also if you go to The orchid inn or OZ when it is roth season I am sure they would be glad to sell you one of Roths that "looks wild" for cheap too. I have a crappy rex x MM that I bought for less then 50 $ just for the heck of it. I know at the OZ you can get one for 50 $ if you go there.
I like hybridizing and I see nothing wrong with it. I agree reintroducing hybridized plants is prob not a good idea. That I guess you could call "unnatural".
Just my rambling for what its worth. prob not a whole lot.
(I think a joke or two may have skewed the besseae thing. Cribb's statement on besseae wasn't talking about reintroduction. The populations that were damaged by rapacious collecting have begun to regenerate by themselves.)
--Stephen
--Stephen
L
lienluu
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Here is another collected bess clone. This one was imported and shown by Ron at Taylor Orchids.
'Orange Delight' AM/AOS
'Orange Delight' AM/AOS
slippertalker
Well-Known Member
The fact that the local populations are reestablishing is a direct result of artificial sib crosses. Taking the pressure off of wild orchids will hopefully help to ensure their survival in the wild. Of course, habitat loss is an even larger threat!
An even better example of line breeding species is Vanda coerulea...It has been bred for 10 or 12 generations already and it hardly resembles the wild version. The genetic material, however, is the same.....
An even better example of line breeding species is Vanda coerulea...It has been bred for 10 or 12 generations already and it hardly resembles the wild version. The genetic material, however, is the same.....
paphioland
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slippertalker said:
Not really true. You can change genetics greatly by inbreeding and strong environmental selection. There ae some genes that are necessary for life and those are conserved through most of the plant kingdom. Also it is not the genetic difference that matters as much as the proteins they translate to. One genetic alteration can have a huge difference on how the genetic code is carried out. This is all simplified of course.
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So, have we totally scared poor Shadow away yet?
Hope not, Shadow. We're just a talkative bunch. We're very friendly though, I promise!
Hope not, Shadow. We're just a talkative bunch. We're very friendly though, I promise!
kentuckiense
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Shadow, stay in her blind spot and don't make any sudden movements.
P
PHRAG
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Shadow lives in the Ukraine. And you thought the time difference between southwestern and northeastern America was a drag!
Jon in SW Ohio
Reefer, the legal kind
Paraphrasing time, cuz I'm a little lost.
Are we saying that "desirible" clones of pure species like roth selectively bred for fuller flowers shouldn't be reintroduced into the wild? Is this worse than selfing a plant and introducing those offspring?
If a plant like besseae is selectively bred from desirible wild clones, should those not be reintroduced? If d'alesandroi and besseae "ecuador" grow within range of eachother, how do we know they aren't crossed in the wild by natural(insect) pollinators?
The way I see it, there are desirible clones of species and undesirible clones of species, all based on opinion. In the wild they grow in range of eachother and pollinate one another. Look at delenatii, who for many generations all came from one plant in cultivation. Now that new ones have been found, aren't their characteristics considered more desirible? If we reintroduced the old delenatii into the wild with the "new ones", would it be good or bad in broadening the gene pool for delenatii and ensuring future generations?
I can understand striving to keep wild clones of plants, but not "preserving" them in other ways. How do you preserve them? Inbreeding and selfing? This would seem like a step backwards towards preservation to me.
Back to one of the original questions, kinda, if asked to choose between a clump of 'Borneo' and a clump of 'Mt. Milais', I would choose 'Mt. Milais' hands down every time. It is more appealing to me, and more of the ideal I have in my head of what rothschildianum is and should be. Why? Same reason I have the taste I have for women I guess. There are things I like and things I don't in flowers.
I do cherish all the wild collected plants I have from Rands years ago though, even though fuller more robust plants are available from generations of selective breeding. Do I like them more than those line bred ones? I do for originality, but not for form. I like both for each reason.
Jon
________
Venza
Are we saying that "desirible" clones of pure species like roth selectively bred for fuller flowers shouldn't be reintroduced into the wild? Is this worse than selfing a plant and introducing those offspring?
If a plant like besseae is selectively bred from desirible wild clones, should those not be reintroduced? If d'alesandroi and besseae "ecuador" grow within range of eachother, how do we know they aren't crossed in the wild by natural(insect) pollinators?
The way I see it, there are desirible clones of species and undesirible clones of species, all based on opinion. In the wild they grow in range of eachother and pollinate one another. Look at delenatii, who for many generations all came from one plant in cultivation. Now that new ones have been found, aren't their characteristics considered more desirible? If we reintroduced the old delenatii into the wild with the "new ones", would it be good or bad in broadening the gene pool for delenatii and ensuring future generations?
I can understand striving to keep wild clones of plants, but not "preserving" them in other ways. How do you preserve them? Inbreeding and selfing? This would seem like a step backwards towards preservation to me.
Back to one of the original questions, kinda, if asked to choose between a clump of 'Borneo' and a clump of 'Mt. Milais', I would choose 'Mt. Milais' hands down every time. It is more appealing to me, and more of the ideal I have in my head of what rothschildianum is and should be. Why? Same reason I have the taste I have for women I guess. There are things I like and things I don't in flowers.
I do cherish all the wild collected plants I have from Rands years ago though, even though fuller more robust plants are available from generations of selective breeding. Do I like them more than those line bred ones? I do for originality, but not for form. I like both for each reason.
Jon
________
Venza
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SlipperFan
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Very intriguing questions, Jon. Interesting observations, also.
E
Eric Muehlbauer
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For someone starting out with roths, and myself included, I'd go for a cross that is reported to be easier to bloom...supposedly, crosses made by Charles E are supposed to be difficult to bloom....My cross is supposed to be easy...now if only I could get it to actually grow......
As for crossing plants that are more "natural"....Ray Rands said years ago that he did not make crosses based on "award" potential...he just crossed representatives of the speces, regardless of appearance...he said that they had just as good a chance of making superior plants as awarded parents. Take care, Eric
As for crossing plants that are more "natural"....Ray Rands said years ago that he did not make crosses based on "award" potential...he just crossed representatives of the speces, regardless of appearance...he said that they had just as good a chance of making superior plants as awarded parents. Take care, Eric
Heather said:So, have we totally scared poor Shadow away yet?
No, you didn't. I wasn't here because of the time difference.
And I'm really surprised to find 6 pages of responses! A lot of information to think about. I need to re-read these pages couple of times to decide on "Borneo". I like its compact growing habit, but I want 2 others as well. 3 roths + new orchids from other places .... I can imagine the face of my husband.... :sob:
Now I'm glad I didn't buy rothschildianum in Germany. It was without the clone name.
Rick
Well-Known Member
Eric Muehlbauer said:
Paphman has been giving me allot of info on roth strains, and we swapped some pollen for some more crossing. He suggested that Eureka was an exceptionally vigorous and easy strain to bloom. It has done well for me mixed with Rex or Noyo.
Paphman910
Well-Known Member
Hello Shadow:
I would go for Paph rothschildianum 'Sam's Delight' x 'Black Star' BUT I would purchase at least four seedlings. Just remember that each seedling growth rate may be different. For example I purchased a flask of Paph rothschildianum 'Powerhouse' x 'Scorpio King' exactly three years ago and the growth rate of them are quite different among the 25 seedling that I got. They range from 24" ls to 12" ls. There are a few seedlings that are only 6" ls and I consider them to be runts. The cross Paph rothschildianum 'Sam's Delight' x 'Black Star' is very similar to Paph rothschildianum 'Powerhouse' x 'Scorpio King'. The 'Black Star' clone is made in Japan using the 'Val' and 'Mont Millais'. The clone 'Val' is from Jack Tonkin breeding from the 'Charles E' x 'Borneo' cross. I believe the clone 'Sam's Delight' is made from the 'Rex' x 'Mont Millais' done by Orchid Zone in Salina, California by Terry Root. It is going to be interesting to see what these new roth will look like in the future. I hope my roth will flower in the next 2-3 years.
Paphman910
I would go for Paph rothschildianum 'Sam's Delight' x 'Black Star' BUT I would purchase at least four seedlings. Just remember that each seedling growth rate may be different. For example I purchased a flask of Paph rothschildianum 'Powerhouse' x 'Scorpio King' exactly three years ago and the growth rate of them are quite different among the 25 seedling that I got. They range from 24" ls to 12" ls. There are a few seedlings that are only 6" ls and I consider them to be runts. The cross Paph rothschildianum 'Sam's Delight' x 'Black Star' is very similar to Paph rothschildianum 'Powerhouse' x 'Scorpio King'. The 'Black Star' clone is made in Japan using the 'Val' and 'Mont Millais'. The clone 'Val' is from Jack Tonkin breeding from the 'Charles E' x 'Borneo' cross. I believe the clone 'Sam's Delight' is made from the 'Rex' x 'Mont Millais' done by Orchid Zone in Salina, California by Terry Root. It is going to be interesting to see what these new roth will look like in the future. I hope my roth will flower in the next 2-3 years.
Paphman910
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