rothschildianum "Borneo" - where did it come from?

[Heather]

I think you all are about to convince me to order a Borneo x self, or two. Unless there is a better "old style" cross still available.

Ha ha! Now that is peer pressure. Talk about enabling! oke:

 

[lienluu]

an "wild collected" looking cross like Borneo and one of the newest and best line bred

What do people consider "best line bred"? Everyone raves about the progeny from the cross of 'Rex' x 'Mont Milais' and yet that is an F1. Both parents are wild collected.

 

[lienluu]

Sam's Best' FCC/AOS x ‘Rex' FCC/AOS next because you have some MM in there and 75% rex I think.
MM is the best parent to date. Look at the best roths. MM is there somewhere. I would avoid Borneo altogether if I were you.

Sam's best is bred from 'Charles E.' x 'Borneo', it is not from 'Rex' x 'Mont Milais'.

 

[PHRAG]

Ha ha! Now that is peer pressure. Talk about enabling! oke:

I wouldn't say it's peer pressure. If anything they are trying to talk people out of buying earlier stuff!

 

[slippertalker]

You are right. Nobody said it outright. But there is a general undertone in most of the above posts that anything close to the original just isn't up to par with line bred stock. It just makes me a little sad to know that in another ten years or so there will be such a noticable difference in the appearance of the roths for sale, and that it will probably be impossible to find the earlier crosses. And this process is influenced in whole by the AOS awards system, so bigger will be better. Why not take a vigorous grower (which more often than not are not well formed flowers) and breed it with a well formed, but thinner dorsal roth to keep the "look" alive? Because there won't be any awards, that's why.

Back on my soapbox. I know, I know.

I believe that economic reasons are the primary factor in any sales of orchids (or anything else). People will purchase plants that produce large well colored flowers versus small poorly formed flowers. The AOS contributes in some manner, but in my opinion orchid nurseries can sell plants that are perceived as high quality. If you want to cull out the poorly formed and colored flowers and breed for that, you could certainly do so; but don't expect to see any demand for such a plant.........
Line breeding for quality has been done from the beginning to create "improved" species and hybrids, and that was prior to any concept of an award system.
AOS Judging is becoming a scapegoat for people that don't understand the history of orchid hybridizing.

 

[PHRAG]

What do people consider "best line bred"? Everyone raves about the progeny from the cross of 'Rex' x 'Mont Milais' and yet that is an F1. Both parents are wild collected.

I don't know, ask them.

I am busy looking for a Borneo x CE to buy. :rollhappy:

 

[PHRAG]

Line breeding for quality has been done from the beginning to create "improved" species and hybrids, and that was prior to any concept of an award system.
AOS Judging is becoming a scapegoat for people that don't understand the history of orchid hybridizing.

And when growers first made the decision to "improve" species, it was driven by ego and not for any other reason. It certainly wasn't to preserve genetic stock of the plants. I may not understand the history of orchid hybridizing. But it IS called orchid "hybridizing" is it not? That means to me that all the new breeding lines are "hybrids" and not true species, but they aren't labeled as such.

Man generally makes a total mess of the stewardship of orchid species. "Let's just cross besseae and dalessandroi, and the peruvian and ecuadorian forms of besseae into each other until we have some bastard seed that we call a true species." It's already been done. How many other species have we "muddied" so far? Paph philippinense is well on it's way. "But we gotta pluck them out of the ground and breed them fast before someone else gets to name them and gets our awards. And if we can make $$$ while doing it, Huzzah!" Thanks but no thanks.

All the wide dorsaled, solid maroon pouched roths in the world can't measure up to the smallest dorsaled, broken color pouched roth growing wild in borneo right now. That's a fact. Anyone who says different is selling something or needs a new certificate in order to feel good about themselves.

 

[PHRAG]

I just wish somewhere, some rich orchid nut was smart enough to leave money behind to preserve orchids as they grow in the wild before we lose all these species to hybridization and CITES, which both do the same amount of "conservation" if you ask me.

 

[gore42]

If it makes you feel any better John, I have a few roths that I imported from Malaysia that are underbred, which I'm growing for that exact purpose... not breeding for awards or for sales, just for the genetic diversity of captive plants

- Matt Gore

 

[Marco]

Sometimes a potato is just a potato.

 

[PHRAG]

I don't mean to sound like a loon. I had almost convinced myself that breeding was ok until this thread. I realize I am in the minority. I am sure many of you like both the "new" orchids and the "wild" originals. But not many think the wild originals are better like I do. And that's ok, as long as the discussion continues. I have, and will continue to buy, some of the line bred orchids like the balloon petalled besseae. I just wish the others were easier to find too.

 

[silence882]

Counter-points!

'Rex' and 'Mont Millais' are both wild-collected. They remain as two of the finest (according to the masses, i guess) roths in the world.

Also, line-breeding has the potential to save 'true' species. For example:
"Superior line-bred plants raised from seed are now widely available in trade and the species [Phrag. besseae] has recovered in the wild so that plants can now be seen at eye-level by roads in its native habitats in southern Ecuador and northern Peru."
(Cribb, P.J. "Phragmipedium kovachii - An Amazing Discovery and Highly Threatened Orchid." Orchid Conservation News 4 (May 2004): 19-20.)

Matt, are your Malaysian plants mostly/exclusively from Michael Ooi?

--Stephen

p.s. Anyone know any articles describing the history of 'Mont Millais'? I think it may have been in cultivation since the late 19th/ early 20th century.

 

[Heather]

John, you don't sound like a loon.
I think it is a really interesting discussion.

Also, the points Lien (and now Stephen) makes about many of these "best" plants not being terribly line bred, is very valid. In this day of F3 etc. generations, we forget exactly where plants like 'Rex' x 'Mont Millais' came from. We forget what is possible in nature alone...

 

[PHRAG]

Also, line-breeding has the potential to save 'true' species. For example:
"Superior line-bred plants raised from seed are now widely available in trade and the species Phrag. besseae has recovered in the wild so that plants can now be seen at eye-level by roads in its native habitats in southern Ecuador and northern Peru."
(Cribb, P.J. "Phragmipedium kovachii - An Amazing Discovery and Highly Threatened Orchid." Orchid Conservation News 4 (May 2004): 19-20.)

Oh god. If you are telling me that OZ besseae have been reintroduced to the wild as "true" species, I am going to puke.

Say it ain't so.

jk.

 

[Heather]

Oh god. If you are telling me that OZ besseae have been reintroduced to the wild as "true" species, I am going to puke.

Say it ain't so.

jk.

How is that style of conservation any less conservation? It's still re-introducing a "species" (granted a bred one) into it's native population, no?

 

[lienluu]

I am going to puke.

Here you go.

 

[Leo Schordje]

choose from: 'Borneo' FCC/AOS x self ; Borneo' FCC/AOS x 'C.E.' FCC/AOS; ‘Sam's Best' FCC/AOS x ‘Rex' FCC/AOS; 'Borneo' FCC/AOS x 'Eureka' AM/AOS; 'Sam's Choice' x 'Eureka' AM/AOS; 'Sam's Delight' x 'Black Star' S/JGP 2001.

Correct me if I am wrong (it has happened at least once ) "Borneo", "Eureka", "Charles E" and "Commander" were a few of the 20 or so collected plants from the Collinette Expedition in the early 1960's. This expedition was the first post WW2 collection of rothschildianum. I think "Rex" is a seed raised clone, but I could be wrong on that. Rex is not the "best" flower, but is has fabulous vigor, and is relatively free and easy bloomer. The flower on "Rex" is good enough that the other traits make it the most sought after by breeders.

The plant "Borneo" is relatively compact growing for a rothschildianum, and this trait can carry through in breeding. It is about average for ease of blooming, and has the benefit of blooming on a small plant. (Charles E is the clone that is a stingy bloomer). Borneo has fairly dark colors for a roth, but it's flower is small compared to other collected clones. It can bloom in a 4 inch pot, which other roths don't usually do, so in many ways "Borneo" has a lot going for it if you keep the windowsill orchid grower in mind. Depending on the size of the division "Borneo" will bloom with as few as one flower per stem up to 4 flowers per stem. The better roths do 5 or 6. "Borneo" is still a very good choice to use when making primary hybrids because it has great color and blooms as a compact plant. I will still buy "Borneo" progeny, especially primary hybrids. I won't buy "Charles E" progeny any more because it is the one that is mediocre by today's standards.

Sam Tsui has the finest collection of roth clones of any nursery in the USA. He is very systematically breeding for the finest rothschildianums possible. I would not hesitate to buy his recomendations. I would go with "Sam's Best x Black Star".

That's my 2 cents. Please correct me if I have detail incorrect, I wrote this from memory. I probably mispelled "Collinette" and that expedition may have been as early as 1959, it is all sort of "vague but true" in my head.
Leo

 

[paphioland]

I think they mean that line breeding produces superior plants in form and size so that the value of wild collected plants goes down giving the natives or outsiders less incentive to take wild plants.

 

[lienluu]

Correct me if I am wrong (it has happened at least once ) "Borneo", "Eureka", "Charles E" and "Commander" were a few of the 20 or so collected plants from the Collinette Expedition in the early 1960's. This expedition was the first post WW2 collection of rothschildianum. I think "Rex" is a seed raised clone, but I could be wrong on that. Rex is not the "best" flower, but is has fabulous vigor, and is relatively free and easy bloomer. The flower on "Rex" is good enough that the other traits make it the most sought after by breeders.

Leo,

Rex is wild collected. There's an article in the Cymbidium Society Journal about it. If you'd like. I can e-mail a pdf copy to you.

Mont Milais was part of the same shipment that Commander was in. In fact, many people believe Commander and Mont Milais are in fact the same clone. That's what Sam mentioned to me in a conversation a few weeks back.

Lien

 

[PHRAG]

How is that style of conservation any less conservation? It's still re-introducing a "species" (granted a bred one) into it's native population, no?

:evil: advocate.

My main problem with all this comes from the "improving" part.

Are you telling me that this...

And this...

Are close enough to the same thing to be growing side by side in the wild?

The first image is a line bred Fox Valley clone. The second is a division of wild collected Peruvian besseae. Answer carefully, this is a trick question.