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rothschildianum "Borneo" - where did it come from?

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Shadow

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Does anybody know the history of Paph.rothschildianum 'Borneo'? What clones were crossed to obtain this clon? I'm asking because now I have an opportunity to order rothschildianum "Borneo" x self and I need to know how its flowers will look like. As I understand, they will not look as original 'Borneo'. Am I right? :confused:
 

Ron-NY

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It is my understanding that 'Borneo' was a jungle collected plant back in the 1960's. I believe a selfing of it was awarded about 6 or so years ago.
 

slippertalker

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Paph rothschildianum "Borneo" was imported from Borneo in the late 60's or early 70's along with other clones such as "Charles E".
 

littlefrog

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For what it is worth, the 'Borneo' x self cross will probably grow more slowly and not be of as high a 'quality' as something more modern. We've had a few generations of selection between 'Borneo' and the latest roths being used for stud.

I'm not saying it is a bad idea, just evaluate your goals. If you want to get the most spectacular roth on the planet, it has less of a chance of coming out of the 'Borneo' cross. If you want something that actually looks like something that would be found in nature, then you probably would want to avoid the latest in line-breeding.
 

Jon in SW Ohio

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As others have said, it was originally wild collected. It is probably not the best roth to get if you are looking for awards, since the dorsal sepal is nearly always quite skinny in its progeny compared with the Mt. Milais crosses. I've got the old standby 'Borneo' x 'Charles E' and it has big flowers, but an unimpressive dorsal typical of the cross.


Jon
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Shadow

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Well, I'm not looking for awards. I think I don't have enough experience for that. I just want to have nice looking rothschildianum, or two, or three of them ( or more, when I move to a bigger flat ;) ) And I have few to choose from: 'Borneo' FCC/AOS x self ; Borneo' FCC/AOS x 'C.E.' FCC/AOS; ‘Sam's Best' FCC/AOS x ‘Rex' FCC/AOS; 'Borneo' FCC/AOS x 'Eureka' AM/AOS; 'Sam's Choice' x 'Eureka' AM/AOS; 'Sam's Delight' x 'Black Star' S/JGP 2001.

I think, I'll get 'Borneo' FCC/AOS x self because such plants (wild clones, parents of all modern clones) deserve to be a part of orchid collection, even if they are not the best. Just to protect history from disappearance.

And, probably, Sam's Best' FCC/AOS x ‘Rex' FCC/AOS, and/or 'Sam's Delight' x 'Black Star' S/JGP 2001. What do you think of my choice?
 

Heather

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Shadow said:
I think, I'll get 'Borneo' FCC/AOS x self because such plants (wild clones, parents of all modern clones) deserve to be a part of orchid collection, even if they are not the best. Just to protect history from disappearance.

And, probably, Sam's Best' FCC/AOS x ‘Rex' FCC/AOS, and/or 'Sam's Delight' x 'Black Star' S/JGP 2001. What do you think of my choice?
I think those are great choices! I would probably go for the 'Sam's Best' x 'Rex' but that is only knowing the parents and having seen a couple that have bloomed. That was actually the first rothschildianum I bought (because when I first started growing, I was afraid to spend any more than a seedling cost) so I am partial to it. Bob in Albany has that plant now. I am too impatient.
 

paphioland

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'Sam's Delight' x 'Black Star' S/JGP 2001 this is prob the best since 50% mm
I believe 25%rex and 25% val. Also the parents themselves are great.

Sam's Best' FCC/AOS x ‘Rex' FCC/AOS next because you have some MM in there and 75% rex I think.
MM is the best parent to date. Look at the best roths. MM is there somewhere. I would avoid Borneo altogether if I were you.
 

paphioland

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I think even the mm x rex is slightly nicer than the rex x MM on average
 

silence882

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'Val' was bred from 'C.E.' x 'Borneo'

The cross made by Tokyo Orchid Nursery of 'Val' x 'Mont Millais' is one of the (if not the) most proven crosses made yet. The older, 'lesser' clones do seem to have an intrinsic value that could manifest itself in second and third generation crosses.

--Stephen
 
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PHRAG

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Hey Shadow,

I used to think the same way you do. I wanted the best looking plants that most closely mirrored the real thing growing in the wild. Then I realized two things.

First, the real thing is usually a very cranky grower. Slow growing and tempermental. Maybe I don't have enough experience to be growing plants like that and they should be left in the hands of those who know better.

Second, there are easily obtainable second generation seedlings of most species. These are just as good as the real thing, but usually are much easier to grow. They are usually "better" formed, but still close enough to the real thing to be enjoyable.

I used to think besseae was only good if it had long thin angular petals. Then Lien showed me a photo of a wild collected besseae that had balloon shaped petals just like the newest breeding lines. I think that was the day I realized I was working a little too hard at collecting plants that may or may not really look like the "real" thing. I say if you want Borneo x self, go for it.

I still hate awards and that system though. :)
 
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PHRAG

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And to the rest of you, it makes my heart hurt just a little when you say that the first generation, or two, crosses have no value and have less than stellar dorsals. They look pretty good to me, but maybe I am not looking at them with my AOS logo blindfold on.

:)
 

Heather

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Poor, poor roth. 'Borneo'....so unloved.

:pity:


Seriously though, I totally understand appreciating natural first generation plants. Look at how we've all flipped over something new like kovachii. But, I also think will be interesting to watch the process of 2nd and 3rd generational breeding that goes on over the next few years to see what is possible. Partly I am intrigued to watch this thanks to plants such as roth, which have become so fabulous with this sort of careful breeding. But mostly, because I haven't been growing long enough to have witnessed that process from discovery through breeding and it fascinates me. (Whoa, has hell frozen over? Ms. anti-science is fascinated by genetics! Will wonders never cease!?) I can't wait to see what happens!
 

littlefrog

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I never said the first generation crosses had no value... And I is an AOS judge. Heck, I collect Paph complex hybrids that are 80+ years old, when I can find them, and a lot of those really suck compared to modern breeding. It really depends on what you like. I appreciate both improved and 'unimproved' species.

I agree fully with the other comments though. A few generations 'in captivity' does wonders for ease of culture and floriferousness. Why? Well, we select for that. If it doesn't grow, it doesn't breed. If it doesn't bloom a lot, it doesn't get used in a lot of crosses. A few generations of that, and we breed a lot of the cantankerousness right out of 'em. All that would happen in the absence of any artificial selection for 'quality', which of course is totally arbitrary and in the eyes of the breeder.
 
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PHRAG

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littlefrog said:
I never said the first generation crosses had no value...
You are right. Nobody said it outright. But there is a general undertone in most of the above posts that anything close to the original just isn't up to par with line bred stock. It just makes me a little sad to know that in another ten years or so there will be such a noticable difference in the appearance of the roths for sale, and that it will probably be impossible to find the earlier crosses. And this process is influenced in whole by the AOS awards system, so bigger will be better. Why not take a vigorous grower (which more often than not are not well formed flowers) and breed it with a well formed, but thinner dorsal roth to keep the "look" alive? Because there won't be any awards, that's why.

Back on my soapbox. I know, I know.
 
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PHRAG

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Can someone please post a couple of photos of an "wild collected" looking cross like Borneo and one of the newest and best line bred plants side by side so I can see exactly what we are talking about here?

I think you all are about to convince me to order a Borneo x self, or two. Unless there is a better "old style" cross still available. :)
 
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