Paphiopedilum Saint Swithin X hangianum

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Ummm....those hangianum plants were apparently sold openly...but that doesn't necessarily make them legal. Unfortunately, to the best of my knowledge, hangianum and its progeny are still 100% illegal in the USA. On the other hand, who knows what percentage of "emersonii" hybrids sold in the US are actually from emersonii? I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of the "emersonii" hybrids sold in the US now are actually hangianum crosses....especially those ubiquitous Taiwanese crosses with the yellow tags.
 
ok, but here is where I have kind of a retoric question... how come that "the system" let these "legal" plants be brought into the USA and be sold at the WOC in Miami, but then they are still considered under ilegal status? Isn't it a bit sick?

i think it was something about one department enforcing the law and a different one approving the paperwork, or something.
 
Ummm....those hangianum plants were apparently sold openly...but that doesn't necessarily make them legal. Unfortunately, to the best of my knowledge, hangianum and its progeny are still 100% illegal in the USA. On the other hand, who knows what percentage of "emersonii" hybrids sold in the US are actually from emersonii? I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of the "emersonii" hybrids sold in the US now are actually hangianum crosses....especially those ubiquitous Taiwanese crosses with the yellow tags.

Eric, if the paperwork to bring the plants in was approved at the custom, the plants are accepted as legal... They at the customs cannot say "Oops! We did not know about them being not legal and that's why we approved them!" Therefore the plants sold at WOC were accepted as legal, and anybody with a good lawyer could win a case like that!
 
Olaf, the American legal system was nicely described by Franz Kafka, in "Vor dem Gesetz" und "Der Prozess", or for those who don't drink "Bier", "Before the Law" and "The Trial". :evil:

By the way, what USFW service does when seizing orchid plants and arresting importers has been described many times on this site, accurately and in depth, but few bother to take notice and simply bark up the wrong trees about the issue. The USFWS does not enforce CITES, they enforce the LACEY ACT. :viking: Period, FULL STOP. So stop jabbering about CITES, that is not the law that USFWS enforces. Use the search function to bring yourselves up to speed, but please quit already going over a non-issue because that is not what USFWS is doing. :mad:

If you want to change things, write or talk with your Congressman about ammending the LACEY ACT, because that is US law that can be changed without re-negociating an international treaty. :fight: The Lacey Act was ammended to cover the basic requirements of CITES, but the Lacey Act existed for 50 years or more before the first CITES Treaty. The Lacy Act covers many facets of requlations around plants and animals. It was originally written to stop the killing of wild birds for the feather trade nearly a century ago. CITES is a small part of what it covers, CITES could disappear tomorrow and that would not change a thing as far as the USFWS enforcement goes, because they don't enforce CITES, they enforce the LACEY Act.

You have USDA - APHIS enforcing a set of rules governing the health status and labeling of what crosses the border and separately you have USFWS enforcing the Lacey Act, which is a set of laws outlining what species of plants and animals can cross the border. If the label is compliant to standards, and the health status of the plant or animal is acceptable, then USDA says it can pass their check points, but that does not mean it is acceptable under the Lacey Act. It does sound like a play written by Kafka, but it is US law. The two agencies are doing different things.

OK, I'm done being grumpy. Lets go back to talking about plants. :) Olaf, that is one beautiful hybrid, and I do know there are people working to get legal Paph hangianum here in the USA, and sooner or later this won't be an issue. Don't forget folks, the rescue center that recieve confiscated plants can release plant parts that were grown here in the USA to private citizens. The dozen or so rescue centers have been getting seized hangianums for 20+ years now, sooner or later enough divisions, pollen and seed will have been legally released in the US so that this issue will become moot.

Back to my 'Bier' :evil:
 
Wow Leo, this is a 'great' post, thanks for these clarifications (fortunately I do not have to care about these US law ambiguities; but IMO those do exist everywhere)!!!!

Maybe we should have a special Thread/sub-forum for discussing the international problems of CITES and similar!!!!

Jean
 
Dear Leo,
many thanks for your words. For the europeans it is really very strange

Best greetings

Olaf
 
Dear Leo,

indeed a very interesting explanation of how the USAmerican System works and its ambiguities... As Olaf said, for non-USAemericans it sounds very strange... now a bit exagerated from my side, but it sounds like if I would bring 20 Kgs Cocaine into the USA but have all papers and labels correct (I am sure I could get some sort of Phytosanitary papers and documents stating that it was obtained from organic pure Coca plants in culture and not theatened or something like that from some of the friends of the president of my country of origin:evil:) Then havingsomeone at the customs sayingthat everything is fine and I can bring my stuff "legally" into the USA (technically seen, it is legally entered!), but then having another guvernamental entity hunting me because my stuff is not legal...

For me the ambiguity, lies on the fact (and here I must disagree with your point of view) that even though both entities deal with "two different laws", they are dealing in this case with exactly the same problem: Legality of Orchids in the USA... therefore it sounds very weird that one side of the law says "It is ok, everything according to my law" and then another one says "STOP! ILLEGAL, according to my law"... keeping in mind that both are part of the same state, well.. ambiguous laws...
 
I was told that the paperwork was not valid. I know there was an individual who picked up all the hang seedlings. The flasks were still available when I got to the vendor but i don't do flasks so I wasn't interested.
 
Another point of clarification, with the orchids, or cycads or any other plant where sale of the plant is restricted; the plant itself is NOT illegal, it is whether or not its importation was illegal. Should someone off handedly say; "That hangianum is illegal." the statement is not correct, the statement should be; "That hangianum was imported illegally which makes its sale, or resale an illegal activity." It is the transactions that are regulated, not the plant it's self. If the plant were illegal, then Paph helenae & Paph vietnamense would NEVER have been able to become available. So at least in theory there is a possibility that some hangianum could be distributed legally. So keep these things in mind, because sometime in the future there will be a population of legally imported, or legally released from rescue centers, hangianum that will produce plants with a legal paperwork trail of the import and sale transactions behind them.

This also explains why the USFWS is mainly focusing on the importers, sellers and resellers of these restricted plants rather than focusing on the hobby grower. It is the transaction that is illegal, rather than the plant.
 
. This also explains why the USFWS is mainly focusing on the importers, sellers and resellers of these restricted plants rather than focusing on the hobby grower. It is the transaction that is illegal, rather than the plant.

Since moving to this neck of the woods, have had some interesting conversations. If the transaction is the shady part, why would judging ever be an issue as so many contend??? Also, during kovachii depositions, deposees were asked if they ever handled the specimen as touching it could be damning.
 
You need to talk to the local (Fla) friend about the solidity of import paperwork. Apparently foreign local government branches are making and selling paperwork to make money; then the overall goverment agencies are denying that the paperwork is legal!
 
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