Paph. insigne fma. sanderianum ???

[DirGo]

"to be or not to be insigne, that's the question"
The original tag only said Paph. insigne "yellow". The seller has closed shop year ago. I have looked at as many insigne pictures and old paintings and descriptions I could find, but honestly I am still in doubt. Insigne is highly variable in flower shapes and I belief it could fall in the range of acceptable variation, but maybe it could also be a primary hybrid, maybe some villosum influence? What are your views? Could I be lucky and it's the species? Secondly - if insigne - it could be forma sanderianum, but the first question to be answered needs to be if it is insigne or not.
Please share your toughts!

 

[monocotman]

There are quite a few hybrids very similar to insigne. They float around the various European vendors and surface occasionally. Yours could well be one of those.

 

[DrLeslieEe]

What is the provenance of this plant?
It might well be the real species with wide petals.

 

[DirGo]

Thank you monocotman and Leslie for your appreciated comments. Your comments made me reconsider.

Here is my current way of thinking:
1) Provenance: is unclear, the nursery has closed years ago. Plants were in their cultivation for many many years, but that means nothing botanically.
2) Petals: I still belief too wide for insigne, it remains my main reason for suspecting hybrid
3) Similar hybrids: I just today found very similar hybrid linked here Paph. Dorama which proofs it could also be this hybrid resembling insigne.

With so much doubt... I think the only proper thing is to keep it as No ID; yellow hybrid.

 

[GuRu]

Thank you monocotman and Leslie for your appreciated comments. Your comments made me reconsider.

Here is my current way of thinking:
1) Provenance: is unclear, the nursery has closed years ago. Plants were in their cultivation for many many years, but that means nothing botanically.
2) Petals: I still belief too wide for insigne, it remains my main reason for suspecting hybrid
3) Similar hybrids: I just today found very similar hybrid linked here Paph. Dorama which proofs it could also be this hybrid resembling insigne.

With so much doubt... I think the only proper thing is to keep it as No ID; yellow hybrid.

Dirk, here is a link to photos of my Paph. insigne fma. sanderianum. But ... also I am not 100% sure whether it is one ore not. What brings me to doubt is the green knob on the staminode and the widths of its leaves. But on the other hand I learnt .... P. insigne is so very highly variable and therefore I wouldn't name not mine and not yours to be a hybrid only by the widths of the petals or leaves and the green knob on the staminode.
As to the provenance of my plant......I received it from Hilmar and he said the plant is a division and came from England.
Unfortunately there are some hybrids around which look, not only on the first glance, very similar to Paph. insigne fma. sanderianum and they are hardly to distinguish. David pointed on this problem and you put the link to Paph. Dorama which is a very complex hybrid which based on P. insigne, P. spicerianum and P. villosum.
Unfortunately I can't neither confirm P. insigne fma. sanderianum nor say it to be a hybrid. Sorry, both is possible in my eyes.

 

[Ozpaph]

a bit different to my 'sanderae' shape-wise. Just looks a bit 'chuncky' But it could be..

 

[DirGo]

I looked at a species key for the Flora of China which compares insigne versus villosum/gratrixianum from wild plants.
insigne: Petals 1.5–2 cm wide, with same color on both sides of midvein, apical half slightly broader than or nearly as broad as basal half
villosum/gratrixianum: Petals 2–4.5 cm wide, with different color on each side of midvein, apical half more than 2 × as broad as basal half;

My flower: Petals are +3 cm wide; different hue of yellow on both sides of midvein, apical half more than 2 × as broad as basal half,

Sadly it seems to fail on every species specific attribute; so my final call just has to be "No ID yellow hybrid"
Thanks to everybody sharing their thoughts.

 

[paphfreak]

Have you ever seen 'hall's classic' FCC/AOS from 1996? These petals are thin. Although the FCC doesn't mean that it might not be correct either.

 

[Ozpaph]

very interesting info but a 'line bred' plant may not adhere to'the rules'.

 

[NYEric]

Could be. I would keep the label, unless otherwise informed.