Orchiata

[Stone]

I have used it for a year and its great.
I used it straight from the bag.
Roots, everything very good.

Good to know:clap:

 

[Stone]

I have been using it for about 6-8 years. While it is still the best bark on the market it is not as consistent as it was before. Recently I have been mixing it 1 part CHC, one part #5 Orchiata and one part #4 perlite. I have found this mix to be really good for my paphs, phrags, miltoniopsis, and anything from seedlings out of flask and compots; pretty much all genera. My cattleya go from this mix(overgrown in 2") into net pots with HUGE bark. Essentially 3 chunks fill up a 4 inch net pot. I can post some pics if anyone is interested; pretty much like a mount, but retains more moisture and won't rot when it rains for weeks at a time over here...

Ever notice that paph roots (and others too) seem to really take off when they hit the side of the pot? Someone in our club mentioned that he puts seedling right up against the side of the pot so the roots hit it quickly and go right down to the bottom. (looks a bit silly though) I think it has something to do with the flat, even surface that encourages them to keep going. Using big chunks in your catt pots are probably doing the same. Kind of like a slab of cork.
I had the same idea of using huge chunks of bark for paphs too. So you get lots of free air, lots of flat surfaces and you just addsome chopped moss and sand to hold the moisture. What else could you want!:rollhappy:

 

[emydura]

Ever notice that paph roots (and others too) seem to really take off when they hit the side of the pot? Someone in our club mentioned that he puts seedling right up against the side of the pot so the roots hit it quickly and go right down to the bottom. (looks a bit silly though) I think it has something to do with the flat, even surface that encourages them to keep going. :

Gary Hart spoke at our orchid meeting last week and said exactly the same thing. He highly recommends potting to one side rather than in the centre.

I have just started using Orchiata bark and are now a little concerned. Prior to this post I had never heard a negative thing about it. The MAGAMP fertiliser I use is ammonium nitrogen so hopefully the problems of low pH won't be a problem.

 

[Stone]

Gary Hart spoke at our orchid meeting last week and said exactly the same thing. He highly recommends potting to one side rather than in the centre.

I have just started using Orchiata bark and are now a little concerned. Prior to this post I had never heard a negative thing about it. The MAGAMP fertiliser I use is ammonium nitrogen so hopefully the problems of low pH won't be a problem.

If you keep an eye on the pour-through pH and add a bit of lime if you need to, everything should be fine. SHOULD!

 

[Cheyenne]

The ph issue can always be corrected. But to me a real problem was how the roots didn't liketo grow down in the mix or stick to the pieces of bark. After you use it for a while you will see what I mean. I think the reason is that the inside of the bark stays hard making it last a long time but the outside is alot softer when it gets wet and stays moist. I don't think the root hairs can attach to ot well. Maybe this is do to the process they use to soften and age the bark. Fir bark stays hard enough for the first six months when new roots are growing that the hairs have a chance to attach. Maybe if the roots can't attach well to a surface they are reluctant to continue growth, I am not sure. But the only plants that I had attach to the bark were some brachy's with there long root hairs. Sometimes I tried to add ALOT of perlite and had better results, but I think that was due to the roots attaching to the perlite morw than the bark.
I was also using a fertilizer with alot of ammonical nitrogen. It helped a little bit. But it will also speed up the process of making the ph drop further. So you have to be diligent with the lime applications.

I am interested in hearing other peoples results after they use it for a while and have a chance to repot after a year or so.

 

[Ray]

I have been using Orchiata for about 2.5-3 years now, have used MSU and now K-Lite exclusively, have done nothing to adjust the pH, and I am seeing absolutely no issues with root growth. The plants that I have used it on tend to be in baskets, but I have several paphs from Graham at Lehua that I have not moved out of the plastic pots they came in, and are older than that, and they are cranking along too.

 

[Rick]

In short:


- The lime is added just after the grading, to get a final pH that is suitable. It is not added at the aging process.

Are you sure? I thought I read in their company litterature that the dolomitic lime was added during the "aging process" .

In some ways this made it analagous to the pretreatment process that ANTEC recomended for coconut husk chips with calcium nitrate and mag sulfate

 

[SlipperFan]

This is an interesting thread -- like David, I've never heard a bad thing about orchiata until now. I have my Paphs and Phals potted in a mix of orchiata, sponge rock and PrimeAgra for two years now, and I'm not seeing any root issues, either.

 

[naoki]

Is the pH of Orchiata lower than Fir bark? I looked around a little bit, but there seems to be a mixed info. According to one scientific study, where Orchiata No. 5 was soaked in water over night before the experiment, and followed the pH over 7 months, initial pH was 4.8 and declined only a little bit to 4.2. If washing off of lime is an issue, you expect the decline of pH to be faster than other media, but it wasn't any faster than other media. The authors think that things excreted from roots are the main cause of pH decline.

 

[Paphman910]

I read on an article of an experiment and it says Douglas Fir ph is 4.2

 

[naoki]

OK, I found an answer from a scientific experiment. pH of fir bark is around pH 6.54 initially, and decline to 5.45 after a year (with Phal growing in it). So Orchiata has a little lower pH than fir bark.

Source of this info for fir bark: http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/33/2/247.short
For Orchiata: http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/46/7/1022.abstract

Thanks Paphman, maybe there is some variation among Doug Fir bark. Also, different method of measuring pH may influence. I think the two studies I cited use somewhat similar method (pour through), so they may be comparable.

 

[DavidCampen]

I just tested some Pinus radiata bark that I purchase from Sunset Valley Orchids:
http://www.sunsetvalleyorchids.com/htm/bark.html

I put #3 bark into a 250 ml beaker to the 100 ml mark and added RO water to the 200 ml mark. After several minutes of gentle agitation I measured the pH using an "Oakton EcoTestr pH2" handheld pH tester that had been calibrated earlier in the day against pH 4.01 and pH 7.01 calibration buffers. I measured a pH in this bark water slurry of 4.0. After this measurement the pH tester was verified against pH 4.01 and pH 7.01 calibration buffers. I have labeled and covered the beaker of slurry and will leave it on my workbench.

I have some Douglas Fir bark but it is in a rented storage room and I won't be able to get there until next weekend. I will test this as soon as I can.

 

[keithrs]

There was a video that showed the process of how orchiata is made. In the video they explained that they wet the piles of bark with dolomite lime. They explained that wetting the piles with lime allows the lime to work it's way into the bark and forms a "shell" on the bark and keeps the bark for composting. Not sure if they have changed there ways with demand here in the states for this bark(or some other reason) and this is why folks are see issues? I personally have not seen issues.

 

[Roth]

I just tested some Pinus radiata bark that I purchase from Sunset Valley Orchids:
http://www.sunsetvalleyorchids.com/htm/bark.html

That's a totally different product, it is fresh Pinus radiata bark, not processed in any way, just screened for the size. Expect it to be acid, and not much water retentive.

OK, I found an answer from a scientific experiment. pH of fir bark is around pH 6.54 initially, and decline to 5.45 after a year (with Phal growing in it). So Orchiata has a little lower pH than fir bark.

I think the two studies I cited use somewhat similar method (pour through), so they may be comparable.

Fir bark is much more acid to start with, however when fresh, it is water repellent. If you put a sample in water, it floats, and does not become wet. As a result, it is difficult to assess its pH in the first place. But clearly, fir bark never starts at pH 6.54, it is technically impossible.

Apart from the problem of putting water repellent bark in water, and 'checking the pH', another common misconception is that, in some instances, weathered composted barks have been leached of their acids, and can have a higher pH ( but not a good stability...). In a few cases, when you buy 'horticulture bark', it is fresh bark, correct, but already pre limed at the factory. It is especially common in Europe, I don't know how it works in the USA... The lime will give the false impression that the bark is more 'alkaline', however as, again, it is water repellent, the lime is on the outer layer of the chip. As a result, after some weeks, the pH drops, especially for growers that tend to flush abundantly.

Are you sure? I thought I read in their company litterature that the dolomitic lime was added during the "aging process" .

In some ways this made it analagous to the pretreatment process that ANTEC recomended for coconut husk chips with calcium nitrate and mag sulfate

I am really sure, because I work for Besgrow :evil: The dolomitic lime is added at the end of the aging process if you want, which means the bark is aged, screened, and the lime is added after screening. There is still residual moisture at that time, and the lime sticks easily. As well, the quantity of lime to apply for the small grade is not the same as the one to apply for the biggest grades. The purpose is to end up with Orchiata at a pH that is not too acid, and not too alkaline...

The pretreatment process for the coconut is something that I designed for the coconut husk chips nearly 20 years ago. Antec got the info from the old AOS forum at that time, just to put the records straight ( and at first they did not believe sodium could still be in the chips without being dissolved by water... until they experienced major plant losses and setbacks, which pushed them to make the proper analysis). This said... it has a different purpose, which was to exchange the potassium and sodium with calcium and magnesium, to remove the sodium from the coconut chips. But it cannot compare with the orchiata and added lime in fact.

 

[Stone]

It doesn't really matter what the pH of the fresh bark is as long as its properly adjusted and kept that way.
For example: For every Kg of Urea you use, you must add 0.75Kg of Calcium carbonate to restore pH.
For Ammonium sulphate, you need 1.1 Kg and for Ammonium nitrate only 0.5Kg of Calcium carbonate for every Kg of the fertilizer.

 

[Trithor]

Whew, this bark thing is very complicated. I just buy a bag of bark chips, make a basic mix, pot my plants and hope for the best! Perhaps that is why I don't grow very well?

 

[Bjorn]

It doesn't really matter what the pH of the fresh bark is as long as its properly adjusted and kept that way.
For example: For every Kg of Urea you use, you must add 0.75Kg of Calcium carbonate to restore pH.
For Ammonium sulphate, you need 1.1 Kg and for Ammonium nitrate only 0.5Kg of Calcium carbonate for every Kg of the fertilizer.

I am delighted to see that Xavier is back, Lets hope its not only for this job-related occasion. Here's my two cents worth regarding the pH issue in particular the urea-misconception as I call it. Ok, here it comes:
"everyone" knows that if you use urea the pH drops. But is it really so? Having a chemistry background, working wit it for 30 years, I simply cannot make that consistent with the basic chemical reactions that the urea undergoes through the transformation to ammonium and eventually to nitrate, if it does? What I experience if I let a diluted, say 100ppm, urea solution stand for a couple of days, is that the pH increases. This can be attributed to the enzymatic decomposition of urea into ammonia, which of course reacts with water to ammoniumhydroxide which is basic.
The ammonium part of the ammoniumhydroxide may in turn be transformed to nitrate, but is it not more likely that the plant absorbs the ammonium? After all if it has nitrate it has to reduce it to ammonium in order to use it? So, my question is therefore; where is the acid that has to be neutralised?
Using ammonium salts like ammonium sulphate is another story. The ammonium ion reacts acid with water and here we have acid, but this is not urea.
Comments?

 

[Rick]

Whew, this bark thing is very complicated. I just buy a bag of bark chips, make a basic mix, pot my plants and hope for the best! Perhaps that is why I don't grow very well?

That's the same reason 3/4 of my plants are either mounted or in baskets with little or no organic media (including slippers).

Same reason folks are using SH methods.

Pot management for orchids is much more of a nightmare than it needs to be. Heavy fertilizing just compounds the issues.

Most of our favorite species grow on the sides of trees with no media at all. Roots exposed to wind sun and rain, and they do just fine.

Keeping orchids in pots is like keeping fish in an aquarium. Most of the effort to keeping the fish in good shape is maintaining the filtration system and water quality, and most of the problems are due to overfeeding.

 

[Trithor]

I spend most of my time trying to uncomplicated things, and also attempting to make things as 'idiot proof' as is possible (as John pointed out not too delicately, I do tend to idiocy). I find that as my collection increases in size and variety, and while I remain full time employed and still need to find time to run the game ranch, that I need to simplify my growing as much as possible. I never realized that bark was such a complicated variable, I must say it makes me feel somewhat silly and poorly informed!

 

[gonewild]

I must say it makes me feel somewhat silly and poorly informed!

That's why the hydroponic folks stopped using organic media.

Never will there ever be two trees with the exact same chemical content, so why do we assume every bag of bark would be the same.