Nutrient deficiency?

[gonewild]

In my experience, the only things that respond to dimming the lights are, teenagers, moths and bats!

The plants in question are teenagers.

 

[The Mutant]

To be honest, I think this has all become very technical, I doubt that the problems are all that great. I would hesitate to embark on a huge biochem crusade. Most problems are corrected by checking potting mix (4 parts bak, sphagnum and perlite does not sound bad, having said that I might be tempted to loose the surface dressing of sphagnum) water, ( the council water does not seem bad, perhaps a bit basic, so perhaps a slight correction to a pH of around 6.5 might be appropriate. Lighting, most paphs (without getting too technical) do fairly well with light conditions in most well lit rooms, and enjoy an east window if available, good humidity, gentle movement of air and then a bit of food. Many threads point out that a lot of orchids do well with no feeding other than what they get in their water. I have often found that if I encounter problems, that reverting to plain water for a month or two will generally see a general improvement (which further emphasizes the dilemma of wether to feed or not, and if to feed, then how much?). I would only then start to fiddle with chemicals. I would start with a dilute organic such as kelp and then start with the inorganics. I am a bit concerned that Mutant is changing too many things too quickly. ( sorry, that is a carpenter talking, not a scientist, I just believe a safe solution is one in moderation)

I did flush the pots and only give them tap water for about a month I think, because I thought I had given too concentrated doses of fertilizer. The leaf death did slow down then, but that could've been caused by too much fertilizer, so the results are inconclusive. The best would be if I could collect rain water, but that's not possible. I do have access to RO water now, so I thought 50/50 tap and RO should get pretty close to rain water.

So I should only use tap water for a month or two? The more different suggestions I get, the more confused I get... :crazy:

Won't they become even more starved than they already are?

Oh, and those that have been repotted, have all only gotten plain water and seaweed extract for about a month. They still look too yellow, like 'Starship' for example.

I have the sphagnum as topdressing, to prevent any new root tips to dry out, and to try and keep the moisture a bit more even in the pots. Otherwise, the substrate could be wet at the bottom and bone dry at the top (just a bit exaggerated :wink: ).

I totally agree! KISS (Keep it simple stupid) I use my regular fertilizer of 25-10-10, 20-20-20 and 10-52-10 and have not used 'special fertilizer' and they still grow well. I think water quality is detrimental to the health of orchids in general! If you can't drink the tap water then your orchids will probably not like it either!

I need some 25-10-10, then I'm golden. I can't switch between something that I don't have.

 

[dodidoki]

I think these are bad news....I don't know what the problem is, I can just give you any advice, how I grow mine roths, and they are growing very fine ( see attached pics).

First: I grow ALL of my plants in semitransparent pot. So I can see their root system and I can recognize any promlem as soosn as possible, not too late.

Second: I grow my paphs just under arteficial light, 30-40 cm from T8 special lilac lightening Fluora tubes , air movement is strong, all of leaves are moving in the "wind" everytime.

Third: I keep them in high humidity, always aronud 80 %.

Fourth: I keep them in Akadama+bark+ clay ballets mix, 1:1:1 ratio, I always desinfect it before potting, and one week after potting with Amistar fungicide.

Fifth: I use only RO or rain water, under 20 ppm, ( between 5-20 ppm), and I give my plants only K-lite fertilizer, I set water to 100 ppm total from RO water.


I always was very happy in the past if I saw a new root. Nowadays I harly deal with roots, they are coming from everywhere, on top, on bottom and pots are full of fresh, living roots, too.



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[papheteer]

I totally agree! KISS (Keep it simple stupid) I use my regular fertilizer of 25-10-10, 20-20-20 and 10-52-10 and have not used 'special fertilizer' and they still grow well. I think water quality is detrimental to the health of orchids in general! If you can't drink the tap water then your orchids will probably not like it either!

I agree 100% with Paphman and Trithor! I like the KISS method. Last year started trying to complicate stuff. Bought an RO system, k-lite and started putting oyster shells. At first i saw improvements. Then suddenly all my plants showed leaf bleaching. The parvis were affected the most. Some of the leaves turned white!!! Then i followed the advice of some good friends and went back to using tap water (tds 190 ph 7.7) and 25-10-10 fertilizer with some ammonium and urea. Now after 3 months most have greened up and growing better than ever.

I'm not saying that all those things are bad. I still believe that low-k is the way to go. But it's the nitrate that gave me problems. I wish they would create a k-lite with some ammoniacal and urea N.

After all these, I learned a few things. Take all the advice your read here with a grain of salt. If something works then don't change it. And most importantly just because one thing works for someone, that doesn't mean it will always work for you and your conditions.

The scientist in me loves reading all the posts here. But I'll leave the experimenting to the real scientists!

 

[The Mutant]

I agree 100% with Paphman and Trithor! I like the KISS method. Last year started trying to complicate stuff. Bought an RO system, k-lite and started putting oyster shells. At first i saw improvements. Then suddenly all my plants showed leaf bleaching. The parvis were affected the most. Some of the leaves turned white!!! Then i followed the advice of some good friends and went back to using tap water (tds 190 ph 7.7) and 25-10-10 fertilizer with some ammonium and urea. Now after 3 months most have greened up and growing better than ever.

I'm not saying that all those things are bad. I still believe that low-k is the way to go. But it's the nitrate that gave me problems. I wish they would create a k-lite with some ammoniacal and urea N.

After all these, I learned a few things. Take all the advice your read here with a grain of salt. If something works then don't change it. And most importantly just because one thing works for someone, that doesn't mean it will always work for you and your conditions.

The scientist in me loves reading all the posts here. But I'll leave the experimenting to the real scientists!

It seems to be a problem here too... I hope I'll be able to fix this issue, 'cause I really want my multis (and the rest) to grow as well as they can, in my windowsill conditions. I just repotted the acclaimed 'MM' x self roth, and it had a very nice root system, so the roots are not the issue on at least two of the roths.

I've only had Paphs for a year, so I still haven't really found what works for me and my conditions, and I'm also new to Phals, in the way that I've never cared for them as I have this past year. I do know that many people use rain water though to water their orchids, and since I can't collect it, I though that 50/50 RO and tap water could act as replacement.

I just had to put your best suggestion in bold marking. Best advice so far! :rollhappy:

 

[dodidoki]

Plant whitening can point on Mg deficiency!

There is an important thing what we have to keep always in mind: RATIOS!

I see this on my father's phalas: they gets traditional fertilizer, but with tap water. It conains many Mg and Ca, hardness is cc. 25 german degree here!!!
TDS of tap water is 270ppm here! So there is not secondary Ca or Mg deficiency here due to tap water.

I always used soft water with traditional fertilizer, many of my plants died within a certain time. Now I use K-lite, but I use it with adding Ca and Mg, too, improvement is unbelivable.

 

[papheteer]

Oh yeah and I use seaweed extracts. Kelpmax from ray and general hydroponics bio weed. About 5ml per gallon of water. I sometimes use calcium nitrate as well at 1/4 tsp/gallon.

I personally think your plants need nitrogen in a different form. So as many have said before try to know about your water and add some ammoniacal and urea to your feed. I bet you after 2-3 months you will see vast improvements.

 

[papheteer]

Plant whitening can point on Mg deficiency!

There is an important thing what we have to keep always in mind: RATIOS!

I see this on my father's phalas: they gets traditional fertilizer, but with tap water. It conains many Mg and Ca, hardness is cc. 25 german degree here!!!
TDS of tap water is 270ppm here! So there is not secondary Ca or Mg deficiency here due to tap water.

I always used soft water with traditional fertilizer, many of my plants died within a certain time. Now I use K-lite, but I use it with adding Ca and Mg, too, improvement is unbelivable.

Yeah magnesium deficiency can cause pale leaves. So i tried supplementing with magnesium first. Nothing happened. When I started feeding with the 25-10-10, that's when my plants greened up. My tap has 35 ppm Ca and 9 ppm Mg.
As i have said, what works for me may not work for someone else. It pays to know your water quality.

 

[The Mutant]

Yeah magnesium can cause pale leaves. So i tried supplementing with magnesium first. Nothing happened. When I started feeding with the 25-10-10, that's when my plants greened up. My tap has 35 ppm Ca and 9 ppm Mg.
As i have said, what works for me may not work for someone else. It pays to know your water quality.

This is what I'm doing now. If it doesn't work, I'll try what you did. That's the plan at least.

I wrote about the water quality earlier in the thread:

dH:2.6-2.8 (soft water in other words)
pH: 7.9-8.6
Conductivity: 15-16 mS/m (which, according to Rick, roughly is about 75 ppm)

 

[papheteer]

Your water is ok. I'd use it from tap. Try supplementing with magnesium. If u don't see any improvement try a fertilizer with some ammonium and urea. That would also bring down the ph a bit. Don't use more than 1/4 tsp/gallon every feeding. And yes seaweed is always good!

 

[gonewild]

Almost all have roots, especially 'Starship', it had an impressive root system when I repotted it a month ago. 'Oriental Red' x 'MM' has one viable root that I can see without digging in the pot, plus it has a new root growing. The acclaimed 'MM' x self, I don't know. It's time to repot it soon, so then I'll see what the roots look like. 'Jim Krull' x 'CC' has no viable roots or new roots that I can see, unfortunately.

Only the first plant looks excessively yellow.
Some of the original photos the leaves look too green and that is why I told you about comparing photos.
Dark green leaves are not always better than light green.

The pale color is most likely ONLY due to the bright light.
I'm not seeing a nutrient deficiency that would be caused by the fertilizer you have been using. It looks like the plants have not been able to use the nutrients correctly because of two things.... poor roots and too much light.

With high light intensity the leaf temperature overheats and the plant is not able to use the nutrients correctly.

I think diagnosing the problem as a mineral shortage that can be corrected by a fertilizer formula change is not correct.

In reality what your are seeing is the "die off" problem that is being contributed to excess potassium.

 

[The Mutant]

Your water is ok. I'd use it from tap. Try supplementing with magnesium. If u don't see any improvement try a fertilizer with some ammonium and urea. That would also bring down the ph a bit. Don't use more than 1/4 tsp/gallon every feeding. And yes seaweed is always good!

That's the plan.

I always use seaweed extract to the Paphs. The Phals got so many roots, I had to stop giving it to them.

Only the first plant looks excessively yellow.
Some of the original photos the leaves look too green and that is why I told you about comparing photos.
Dark green leaves are not always better than light green.

The pale color is most likely ONLY due to the bright light.
I'm not seeing a nutrient deficiency that would be caused by the fertilizer you have been using. It looks like the plants have not been able to use the nutrients correctly because of two things.... poor roots and too much light.

With high light intensity the leaf temperature overheats and the plant is not able to use the nutrients correctly.

I think diagnosing the problem as a mineral shortage that can be corrected by a fertilizer formula change is not correct.

In reality what your are seeing is the "die off" problem that is being contributed to excess potassium.

But the most yellow roth is the one with the best root system too, so it seems weird. But, the T5 was too close to the plants, which is why I raised it, so I do believe it has contributed to the problem.

So despite the fact that I've used K-lite for a year, they still suffer from excess K?

 

[eggshells]

Only the first plant looks excessively yellow.
Some of the original photos the leaves look too green and that is why I told you about comparing photos.
Dark green leaves are not always better than light green.

The pale color is most likely ONLY due to the bright light.
I'm not seeing a nutrient deficiency that would be caused by the fertilizer you have been using. It looks like the plants have not been able to use the nutrients correctly because of two things.... poor roots and too much light.

With high light intensity the leaf temperature overheats and the plant is not able to use the nutrients correctly.

I think diagnosing the problem as a mineral shortage that can be corrected by a fertilizer formula change is not correct.

Actually, Stone answered you question/statement on this thread

The pictures that mutant posted is in fact paler compared to the wild rothschildianum.

That is also true in most in-situ photos that the plants are green in colour. Not pale yellow.

So as Stone have stated, you should at least aim for that colour more or less.

In reality what your are seeing is the "die off" problem that is being contributed to excess potassium.

She was already using K-lite... How much more pottasium do you suggest that she reduce?

 

[Rick]

That's the plan.

The Phals got so many roots, I had to stop giving it to them.

You can have too many roots??

 

[Rick]

Ok

I was looking into why plants may not effectively utilize nitrate.

The same ratio of nitrate to ammonical N in K lite is the same as for the old MSU (which seemingly supplied enough N in the past for some). The most significant exceptions seem to be when pH is run up, and buffering content (calcium carbonate and bicarbonate is high).

Apparently the nitrate reductase system (which depends on Fe and Mo to catalyze the reduction of nitrate) uses phosphate and/or sulfate. Both of which were reduced in K lite.

In particular phosphate is also bound up by calcium carbonate. Given the lime treatment used on Orchiata, and other buffering potential by high TDS waters and calcareous supplements, the likelihood of stalling out the nitrate reductase system in the plant is increased under low phosphate and sulfate availability.

Adding epsom salt will increase both Mg and SO4. If you can find some Mg-Phosphate could be even better. There's already more than enough Ca in this system, so I wouldn't go to bone meal. Iron phosphate (main ingredient in slug bait) could also be liberating.


Keep in mind that green in plants is due to presence of chlorophyll. It doesn't work (and make green) without Mg. A chlorophyll molecule is mostly carbon and hydrogen with 4 molecules of N and 1 of Mg.

Given that less than 1% of a plant is made up of NPK Ca Mg..... it doesn't take much to serve the plant. But we are doing lots of things with our chemical environment to impede the plants ability to take up these nutrients.

 

[gonewild]

But the most yellow roth is the one with the best root system too, so it seems weird. But, the T5 was too close to the plants, which is why I raised it, so I do believe it has contributed to the problem.

Did they all have good roots when you got them?

So despite the fact that I've used K-lite for a year, they still suffer from excess K?

It's possible. But I'm not saying that is the case what I'm saying is the symptoms look like it.

What caused the plants to loose roots? If the plants had good rots a yer ago and you fertilized them constantly with K-lite the roots were not lost due to a mineral deficiency.

You should suspect the old media as a possible cause for the problem.

 

[gonewild]

Actually, Stone answered you question/statement on this thread

The pictures that mutant posted is in fact paler compared to the wild rothschildianum.

I don't see that the color in these two plants is much different. Consider that Mutant's picture color is off white balance towards too much yellow.

That is also true in most in-situ photos that the plants are green in colour. Not pale yellow.

Most in-situ pictures are taken of the best specimens rather than sickly looking plants. And most orchids growing in the wild are growing in near ideal light levels and not fried under T5 lighting. If the wild plants were not in ideal light they probably would die off as seedlings.

So as Stone have stated, you should at least aim for that colour more or less.

No disagreement with this idea. But you can not trust making color evaluations from photos taken in different color light spectrums.
Mutant's photos color balance are not correct and they present the foliage more yellow than in reality.

She was already using K-lite... How much more pottasium do you suggest that she reduce?

Not reducing Potassium in the fertilizer. I'm suggesting that it had accumulated in the media and was available to the plants in excess. The plants tissue may have been already loaded with high levels of K when she got them.

Rather than looking at the leaf color to make the diagnosis I would look at the overall plant health and specifically root condition. Bright light combined with poor roots will produce plants like these.

Am I correct that her other plants are not showing the same symptoms?

 

[Stone]

In my experience, the only things that respond to dimming the lights are, teenagers, moths and bats!

:rollhappy::rollhappy:

 

[Stone]

The green leaf veins and pale leaves suggest magnesium deficiency to me.

Too much light is a possible reason... To test this give them some magnesium (epson salts) and if they don't get green then dim the lights a bit and see if the plants respond.

The plants are clearly growing so I don't think nitrogen is the issue.[/

If they are getting klite they are recieving more than enough Mg. Mg deficiency show up in the older leaves first. This is much more like an N problem possibly coupled with low suphur (not much in klite)
A lack of either or both of these is seen as general paleness.

 

[Stone]

The pale color is most likely ONLY due to the bright light.
I'm not seeing a nutrient deficiency that would be caused by the fertilizer you have been using. It looks like the plants have not been able to use the nutrients correctly because of two things.... poor roots and too much light.

Last summer my roths got ''Cattleya light'' I mean I had to wear sunglasses at midday and they remained a good green. Not dark but I guess you could call it grass green.

I think diagnosing the problem as a mineral shortage that can be corrected by a fertilizer formula change is not correct.

I don't think you could come up with a more classic case of mineral shortage.

In reality what your are seeing is the "die off" problem that is being contributed to excess potassium.

Thats a very forthright statement! Unfortunately it dosent stand up at all. How come eggshells, paphman's and mine ( and no doubt countless others) are not ''dieing off'' yet all get ''standard'' K? BTW Lance, tell us what you feed your plants.....