Most difficult Paph species?

[Stone]

I know. So now when I get the urge to feed I go and look at the 50 ft poplar tree that I planted 12 years ago when it was only 1 ft high. It has never been fed or watered (other than rain). It's bloomed fantastically the last three springs. If the tree can grow 50 ft of biomass in 12 years, then why should I worry about feeding a 12" tall paph?

Have a look at the dS/m on the kovachii link on the other thread..
Habitat 1..0.4 dS/m, Habitat 2...0.2 dS/m. I've been feeding my paphs at between 0.3 and 0.4 every 3rd watering which is about 1/8 recommended.
I can't work out the EC thing though

 

[Mocchaccino]

I find all Paphs. easy to grow and keep the foliage looking
pristine, however, getting them to bloom is not so easy.
I only have 30 Paphs. and most are Brachys and most are
still relatively small, but generally I'm quite happy with
K-Lite, high humidity and LOTS of air movement.

Agree. Getting them bloom is much harder than keeping them alive.

I feel reluctant to use the word "difficult" since the difficulty of cultivating a species depends very much on how your conditions are. For instance, icranthum and armeniacum grow pretty well under cool conditions. But they are considered to be the most challenging species in tropical ground areas since the average temperature is too high for them.

But generally i would still put certain species under the category of "difficult species". Since these species are seldom reported to be grown well around the globe. These might be adductum, anitum, wentworthianum, papuanum, randsii and violascens, anymore???

 

[Rick]

Have a look at the dS/m on the kovachii link on the other thread..
Habitat 1..0.4 dS/m, Habitat 2...0.2 dS/m. I've been feeding my paphs at between 0.3 and 0.4 every 3rd watering which is about 1/8 recommended.
I can't work out the EC thing though

Mike EC or conductivity is a total measure of "salt activity" and may have nothing to do with the components of a fertilizer mix at any given spot in the world.

I work with natural (fresh) waters that have conductivity values from 10 to 4000 useimens/cm and they have no significant nitrogen phosphorus or potassium in them. I can read a lot into a sample of water by knowing the hardness (Ca/Mg concentrations), and conductivity, but I really wouldn't be able to say much about its nutritional value.

Although NPK are key metabolic constituents for all plant/animal species they are also toxic at certain levels and are indicator toxicants of dysfunctioning systems. Ammonia, and nitrite are highly toxic to freshwater organisms at low single digit ppms. Nitrate is less toxic acutely but causes chronic toxicity at values as low as 20ppm for many organisms, and algae blooms down around 5ppm. These forms of nitrogen are not commonly available in the natural world. Potassium is also not common in the environment and toxic to many organisms at fertilizer strength.

 

[eggshells]

I think alot of the species that are hard we just don't know that much about there conditions, or the right information. Like adductum and anitum, I had a problem with them at first. Then researched a little more found out they like alot of shade, alot!!! They like a more acidic media and respond better to ammonical fert. Now I haven't lost one in years. Emersonii, hangianum and company, pretty much all the parvi's experience very different seasons. You get that right and they are pretty easy and fast growing. You don't get it right and they do nothing and slowly die. I find the hardest plants are the ones that are slower to get going because there is more time to do something wrong. That said, for some reason I find the barbata and or maudiae types the hardest, I am missing something there. Other people can grow enormous plants on a window sill with multiple spikes.

I agree with you on the adductum. I am growing mine under 500 fcs and boy It does make a big difference. My plant right now is looking good compared to when I got it. Leaves are bigger, wider and greener. I think because it's a multifloral, people think that it needs bright light but in fact it needs so little. I give my other paphs more light than these suckers.

 

[wonderlen3000]

This is pretty good topic....the paph are all over the places in term of ease of growing and getting to flower.

I say the insigne group is the easiest one to grow and bloom as a group. The plant also are very long live and some species like charlesworthii, spicerianum, gratrixianum are line breeded to perfection. The only concern is keeping the bud alive to make it to flowering stage, as some are very prone to bud blast (tigrinum, hirsutisismum, henryanum) and thats mainly due to temperature issue as the bud cant handel summer heat and low humidity.

Barbata group range from easy to just plain pain in the #$$. callosum, barbata n related species are very easy and long live. Other like urbanianum, appletonianum, purpurantum are still easy. hookerae is slow growing, but the bloom is very long lasting so it kindda even out. I say the mastersianum group is the most notorious one, as they don't live very long, perhaps 4-5 years after reaching blooming size, and most just bloom and die.

 

[Cheyenne]

I agree with you on the adductum. I am growing mine under 500 fcs and boy It does make a big difference. My plant right now is looking good compared to when I got it. Leaves are bigger, wider and greener. I think because it's a multifloral, people think that it needs bright light but in fact it needs so little. I give my other paphs more light than these suckers.

Also on the adductum I noticed that they grow better and more plentiful roots when they are left in there pot until the bark really starts to decay and acidify. Whenever I repot to fresh mix they seem to stall. So last year I didn't repot(2 year old bark) and two of my blooming size plants took off faster than I have ever seen them grow and put up spikes, then new growths. They are supposed to grow in decaying fern roots with a low ph. I am trying fern roots now. Hope for the best.

 

[Susie11]

I am a newbie too so I can't really add anything at this point but I do still have all of the ones that I started out with last year and I haven't lost any yet! The only problem paph for me so far is my ever-so-easy to bloom Maudiae alba which is taking forever to do nothing. My wardii and Hung Sheng Venus and even venutsum are all blooming and doing fine it is just the stubborn Maudiae that is making me mad, argh!!

 

[Rick]

I agree with you on the adductum. I am growing mine under 500 fcs and boy It does make a big difference. My plant right now is looking good compared to when I got it. Leaves are bigger, wider and greener. I think because it's a multifloral, people think that it needs bright light but in fact it needs so little. I give my other paphs more light than these suckers.

My supardii and sanderianum also prefer to be at the darker end of the GH shaded by overhead plants.

 

[The Mutant]

It's very interesting to read what you more experienced growers have to say (and you too Susie ) regarding this question.

The major part of my collection consists of Sigmatopetalum and almost all of them are young, single growth plants. I think that for me, the first step will be to get them all to grow more fans, if I can accomplish that I think I might consider myself fairly capable of caring for parts of this subgenus. Problem is that the infamous violascens and mastersianum are also part of the subgenus, and, well, those two we'll just have to see what happens with.

I would say that most of my Paph collection consists of young, single growth plants and that more fans all around are desirable, and that I one day might be able to bloom one or two of my Polyantha and Polyantha hybrids.

As for now, I'm too new to know which species I'll find the most difficult, but so far the plant I've had the most problems with is a roth.

 

[Rick]

Have a look at the dS/m on the kovachii link on the other thread..
Habitat 1..0.4 dS/m, Habitat 2...0.2 dS/m. I've been feeding my paphs at between 0.3 and 0.4 every 3rd watering which is about 1/8 recommended.
I can't work out the EC thing though

Mike
It looks like from Hab 1, dS/meter= 0.41 and for Hab 2 = 0.19 dS/M

dS/meter is really the same as milli mhos or milli siemens per cm

All my comparative conductance values are in micro siemens/cm, so just need to multiply by 1000.

So Hab 1 = 410 usiemens/cm and Hab 2 = 190 usiemens/cm

From a standpoint of a normal stream or river water these are pretty normal. The conductivity of the tap water here in Nashville is 200 useimens. The conductivity of my crusty @$@^% well water is 680 to 800useimens. So Hab one EC is just about half as salty as my well water straight up. But I also know that my well water has virtually no N and K in it. All the EC comes from the salts of Ca, Mg, and dash of Na(sodium). The anions are primarily sulfate and bicarbonate, and a dash of chloride.

 

[Stone]

Mike
It looks like from Hab 1, dS/meter= 0.41 and for Hab 2 = 0.19 dS/M

dS/meter is really the same as milli mhos or milli siemens per cm

All my comparative conductance values are in micro siemens/cm, so just need to multiply by 1000.

So Hab 1 = 410 usiemens/cm and Hab 2 = 190 usiemens/cm

From a standpoint of a normal stream or river water these are pretty normal. The conductivity of the tap water here in Nashville is 200 useimens. The conductivity of my crusty @$@^% well water is 680 to 800useimens. So Hab one EC is just about half as salty as my well water straight up. But I also know that my well water has virtually no N and K in it. All the EC comes from the salts of Ca, Mg, and dash of Na(sodium). The anions are primarily sulfate and bicarbonate, and a dash of chloride.

Yes Rick I know what EC and dS/m is. Maybe I wasn't being very clear.
I was trying to illustrate how low (I presume of the natural kovachii substrate)
the EC or dS/m was and that it was similar to the strength I'm using when I dilute my fertilizer solution.
The column with the percentages under EC, I don't get
Have you mesured the EC of your final fertilizer solution? What is it?
Example: A solution of Calcium nitrate supplying 100 ppm of N has an EC of 0.84 dS/m which is too high for pahs already I reckon. Add everything else and your way over the top. IMO you should never rely on manufactures instructions on the fert packet and just halve or quarter that or whatever.
Thats why I always make up my solution with warm water and then add water to bring down the EC to 0.3 dS/m or whatever I want. If I want to add Kelp or fish or someting, I just recheck and bring it back down to 0.3.
You can't go wrong
If you are using Urea, you must allow for it by increasing your mesured EC by 1.5 dS/m for every g of Urea/L you are using.
The constituents and balance of your fertilizer is very important but the EC is absolutly paramount!!

 

[Rick]

No I don't go by EC, but by calculated ppm.

As illustrated in comparing the habitat EC's to surface water EC's versus fertilizer EC's they don't have any relevancy.

You can generate EC from any individual salt (KCL, NaCl, NaHCO3, CaNO3.....) and or from combination of salts as in a fert mix. But the plants reaction to the same EC from any of those individual salts or combinations will be totally different.

The ion combinations for the habitat EC's produced by rain water running over and through limestone rock will not be comparable to the ion combinations that produce the EC of your fert mix. I understand that going from one batch of fert to the next, you can do a better job of making sure the concentrations of your salts in your fert mix are the same each time, but you can't use the EC value of of a limestone seep water to figure out how much nitrogen phosphorus or potassium the wild plants see.

 

[Stone]

No I don't go by EC, but by calculated ppm.

How do you actually mesure the amount of your fertilizer? Is it so much fert in a spoon or by weight?



,

but you can't use the EC value of of a limestone seep water to figure out how much nitrogen phosphorus or potassium the wild plants see

No but you can use that information to give you a good idea as to how much salinity they have evolved with or are receiving.
Most big hydroponic systems have an in line salinity meter wired to an alarm to warn when EC goes too high or too low according to pre set parameters. Every plant crop has an established optimum salinity tolerance varying from very low to very high above which growth is reduced. But the actual fertilizer doesn't change that much.
The actual optimum combination and levels of individual nutrients is determined through other trials (which you are doing right now) but I say again that knowing the crop's tolerence to salinity is vital.
Also important is knowing that pot media water salinity will double when moisture levels reduce by half. You can use EC meters to determine the salinity of a pour through extraction and adjust accordingly. How else do you really know whats going on in the pot?

 

[Susie11]

It's very interesting to read what you more experienced growers have to say (and you too Susie ) regarding this question.

The major part of my collection consists of Sigmatopetalum and almost all of them are young, single growth plants. I think that for me, the first step will be to get them all to grow more fans, if I can accomplish that I think I might consider myself fairly capable of caring for parts of this subgenus. Problem is that the infamous violascens and mastersianum are also part of the subgenus, and, well, those two we'll just have to see what happens with.

I would say that most of my Paph collection consists of young, single growth plants and that more fans all around are desirable, and that I one day might be able to bloom one or two of my Polyantha and Polyantha hybrids.

As for now, I'm too new to know which species I'll find the most difficult, but so far the plant I've had the most problems with is a roth.

I believe that you were having problems with the roots on your Roth- no live ones left. Did you ever manage to save it or is that why I read on another thread that you are planning to buy another one? They do seem like tricky paphs for the inexperienced grower. I am considering whether to get one myself. I know that I will get one one day but as I am so new to the genus maybe after a few more years. My paphs are doing well though, I have new growths and blooms coming on so I can't complain.

 

[The Mutant]

I believe that you were having problems with the roots on your Roth- no live ones left. Did you ever manage to save it or is that why I read on another thread that you are planning to buy another one? They do seem like tricky paphs for the inexperienced grower. I am considering whether to get one myself. I know that I will get one one day but as I am so new to the genus maybe after a few more years. My paphs are doing well though, I have new growths and blooms coming on so I can't complain.

At the moment, I have three roths, one from Schwerter (it's the one without any roots, except it now has one tiny root and three new growths as a desperate last attempt apparently ), one from Popow, and one from Asendorfer. I'm expecting two more roths by the end of the month, but this time from Orchid Inn.

I'm more new to the Paph genus than you are, but as long as you get a roth with a healthy root system, I don't see why you shouldn't try one. My acclaimed 'MM', for example, is doing great and grows like a weed (for a roth that is). As far as I've understood it, the thing you need most of when growing roths, is patience. :wink:

It's the only Paph species that I have several of, otherwise I prefer having only one of each of the species I'm interested in.

 

[Shiva]

There are two kinds of paphs for me: those that flower well and repeatedly and those that don't. I have good success with multiflorals and very little with the other kinds. It seems that some of these other paphs tend to bloom soon after I buy them, and then never flower again. Thus it makes sense for me to go for multiflorals and sell, trash or give away the other paphs in my collection that are not doing so good. Finicky plants really don't do it for me.

 

[Susie11]

At the moment, I have three roths, one from Schwerter (it's the one without any roots, except it now has one tiny root and three new growths as a desperate last attempt apparently ), one from Popow, and one from Asendorfer. I'm expecting two more roths by the end of the month, but this time from Orchid Inn.

I'm more new to the Paph genus than you are, but as long as you get a roth with a healthy root system, I don't see why you shouldn't try one. My acclaimed 'MM', for example, is doing great and grows like a weed (for a roth that is). As far as I've understood it, the thing you need most of when growing roths, is patience. :wink:

It's the only Paph species that I have several of, otherwise I prefer having only one of each of the species I'm interested in.

Wow, three? You are hard core!! I wouldn't dare get one just yet. I have two charles's. That is my favourite type I think. I have two paphs coming at the end of the month from Orchid Inn as well, I can't wait. I think that my love affair with albums only is finally over. I have two coloured ones now, well I will do when Sam get's here. I love parishii the most as far as multi florals go. I have one from Elsner with a 14 inch leaf span but so far no sign of anything exciting happening. I might get a Roth next but there are others than I would like more first.

 

[billc]

I might get a Roth next but there are others than I would like more first.

You might change your mind if you ever bloom one. There's nothing like it!

Bill

 

[Rick]

How do you actually mesure the amount of your fertilizer? Is it so much fert in a spoon or by weight?



,

No but you can use that information to give you a good idea as to how much salinity they have evolved with or are receiving.
Most big hydroponic systems have an in line salinity meter wired to an alarm to warn when EC goes too high or too low according to pre set parameters. Every plant crop has an established optimum salinity tolerance varying from very low to very high above which growth is reduced. But the actual fertilizer doesn't change that much.
The actual optimum combination and levels of individual nutrients is determined through other trials (which you are doing right now) but I say again that knowing the crop's tolerence to salinity is vital.
Also important is knowing that pot media water salinity will double when moisture levels reduce by half. You can use EC meters to determine the salinity of a pour through extraction and adjust accordingly. How else do you really know whats going on in the pot?

I measure fert by spoon. At a particular spoon/water volume concentration I check nitrate concentration by cadmium reduction method to verify the spoon measure.

The "salinity" of what the plants evolved to is not relevant to the "salinity" you are exposing them too with fertilizer.

An easy example is the reference toxicant tests we expose our water fleas to in the lab. We can use sodium chloride or potassium chloride. The EC of 2 gram/liter of either salt is 4000 usiemens/cm. However, the reproduction of the fleas will be suppressed at .8 to 1 g/L of NaCl, but down to .3 to .4 g/L of KCl. The most extreme difference would be between calcium sulfate and potassium nitrate. The water fleas will reproduce at just about the soluble limit of CaSO4 (3or so g/L), but will be impacted around .05 g/L of potassium nitrate. The EC at the toxic level is all over the board for the different salts. We observe water fleas thriving in waters with EC from 25 to 8,000 us/cm, but when we see them crash at EC of 500 we know we have a solution lopsided with K and N, and if they are thriving at EC of 4000 we know that there is mostly CaSO4 in the mixture.

We also have a different species of water flea that is more salt tolerant than its smaller counterpoint. For most of the salts (NaCl, KCl, CaCL) it can hand twice as much. But when it comes to the nitrogen salts it is just as sensitive as the wimpy one.

These observations are so predictable we actually have developed computer software to model the toxicity of salt combinations without having to even put organisms in the water to prove it.

Plants react in the same way as non photosynthetic organisms, but at different absolute levels. So going back to the kovachii example, even though the habitat EC is 400us/cm (not low by standard surface water levels), this is made up mostly by Calcium sulfate, and I bet you that if you continuously expose your PK to a solution of potassium nitrate at EC 400us/cm that you end up with big trouble.

The EC meters on hydroponic systems are "calibrated" for an optimized solution strength of known ingredients with known reaction concentrations based on observation of that particular system. It has nothing to do the the EC of the groundwater or surface irrigation water these plants may be exposed to in the wild.

 

[The Mutant]

Wow, three? You are hard core!! I wouldn't dare get one just yet. I have two charles's. That is my favourite type I think. I have two paphs coming at the end of the month from Orchid Inn as well, I can't wait. I think that my love affair with albums only is finally over. I have two coloured ones now, well I will do when Sam get's here. I love parishii the most as far as multi florals go. I have one from Elsner with a 14 inch leaf span but so far no sign of anything exciting happening. I might get a Roth next but there are others than I would like more first.

I don't know why, but I'm completely sold on roths and I've never even laid eyes on a blooming one IRL! :rollhappy:

Parishii are very VERY cute, but since I have limited space I can't get too many multifloras and since I've been invaded by roths, there's just no room left. I would love a lowii though, and a Bernice, and a Chiu Hua Dancer, and... Ah, well, you see how bad I've got it, right? :wink:

For now I have a philippinenense var. roebelenii BS from Elsner that would have bloomed if I hadn't let it dry out too much, a MK that might bloom next year if I'm lucky, and a PEoY that's estimated to reach BS in 3-4 years. There will be some time before I'll see any multifloras IRL in other words. :rollhappy: