Macroelements/microelements must be a costant ratio?

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As far as micronutrients... If you aren't growing hydroponically and have some complex organic material in your mix, even regular repotting with bark/moss/etc., or use an umprocessed water source once in a while, micronutrients are probably not going to be your limiting factor.
 
are probably not going to be your limiting factor.

:clap::clap:Limiting is the key word MadMan.

When you see what's available to very happy plants in the wild, the amounts of macros and micros we apply to our plants make for toxicology experiments because we are generally orders of magnitude beyond "limiting" in our applications.
 
[
QUOTE=DarioU;512358]Dear Orchid friends,
The ratio of macro and microelements in a nutrient solution must be costant? In other words a solution with 100 ppm of N must have more microelements of a solution with 60 ppm of N?

Generally, when we dilute a complete fertilizer, we reduce everything as we add more water of course, but the actual amount of trace elements is so small that there is quite a lot of room for a bit more or a bit less before any toxicities will become obvious. In general horticulture (all plants grown in containers) it is far more common to see deficiencies before toxicities.

Common deficiencies (from incorrect additions) are Mg Fe, Less common is Ca, S, K, N, Mn, B.
Most classic toxicities (and they are quite rare) is due to the pH of the mix coming down below 5.

You can feel free to raise the N (mainly) but also K and even P to say double what you normally use (assuming you don't use too much in the first place!) before you will see a deficiency in micros.
If we assume that all micros are provided, the pH of the mix and irrigation water is probably more important than increasing the micros along with the N.

So in short, don't worry about it too much but be aware that after a while, Mn and B might be two of the first to run out.
If you use bark or organic, Fe Zn and Cu will bind strongly to the organic material and will not leach out much at all.
If you use stones it's is a different story and you must supply everything the plant needs constantly.

Anyway that's how I approach the trace element question. How much of each specific element is still a bit of a mystery...to me anyway!
 
The largest differences are in Boron, Fe, Cu ...

and none of them declare Na although leaf analyses frequently show significant amounts of it. Ok, sodium is very common in nature so in Natural eco-systems its always present, but what happens if we use RO water? Should we be dependent on substrate break-down in order to get the nutrients?
 
To quote "my friend" Horst Marschner: "Chlorine is a strange mineral nutrient. Its normal concentration in plants is between 70 and 700 mmol/kg dry weight (~2000 and 20,000 mg/kg dry wt), which is typical of the level of macronutrients. On the other hand, the chlorine requirement for optimal growth is between 10 and 30 mmol/kg dry wt (~340 and 1200 mg/kg dry wt), which is in the range of micronutrient levels.

He goes on to say that it is ubiquitous, and is readily absorbed from soils, rain, fertilizers and air pollution.

This is yet one more thing to not be concerned with.
 
To quote "my friend" Horst Marschner: "Chlorine is a strange mineral nutrient. Its normal concentration in plants is between 70 and 700 mmol/kg dry weight (~2000 and 20,000 mg/kg dry wt), which is typical of the level of macronutrients. On the other hand, the chlorine requirement for optimal growth is between 10 and 30 mmol/kg dry wt (~340 and 1200 mg/kg dry wt), which is in the range of micronutrient levels.

He goes on to say that it is ubiquitous, and is readily absorbed from soils, rain, fertilizers and air pollution.

This is yet one more thing to not be concerned with.

With "natural" sources, yes I agree, but with RO?
Another thing; not all sodium comes as sodium chloride. Potassium is commonly mined (and fertilised) as potassium chloride, so there is your chlorine source. But some sodium may come in that way as well, the potassium in fertilisers are normally not p.a. purity.
If your chlorine source is air, I would be cautious though:D
Since you have started the calculations Ray; what about this:
A typical fertiliser(MSU) contains 13.2% N(132000ppm) and 0.18% Fe(1800ppm). Lets assume it contains as much chlorine as Fe. How much water at 13.2ppm N to supply 340 mg (1kg dry matter) chlorine? Answer:2492 liter (658gal) Possible? Probably.
Likely? I dont know.
easier with 100ppm N.
 
OK here's a time series of a plant that has gone thru (and survived) the boom and bust cycle common for me with high K feeding.

This Bulbo unitubum (mounted in wooden basket) was purchased BS multigrowth in 2006. Here in 2007 I'm pretty happy with it, and ultimately total growths got up to 20+


Some where around 2008-2009 it started crashing and I took what was left and tied it to a piece of grape vine. It straggled on and produced a bloom in 2010 (3 months into the early low K program)


Now here it is after 3+ years of low K and "impoverished" feeding.


The old growths (which were mature blooming growths) at the bottom are tiny compared to the new growths. The oldest bulbs are 1.6 cm the newest are 4 cm. The oldest growth with a leaf is 2 cm and the leaf is 5 cm. The leaves on the new growths are 9 cm. The old flower spikes are still attached, and the old growths have 1-3 spikes, while the newest growth has 5 spikes, and still healthy enough to bloom again. From 2006 to 2010 it never produced growths this big or floriferous.
 
Interesting Rick. And about your use of KelpMax? Maybe it is not the KLite which supplies the oligos but the Kelpak. What is your current use of this laste?
Of coarse quantity and frequency. Is it exist an oligos analysis for KelpMax?
 
Interesting Rick. And about your use of Kelpack? Maybe it is not the KLite which supplies the oligos but the Kelpak. What is your current use of this laste?
Of coarse quantity and frequency. Is it exist an oligos analysis for Kelpack?

I haven't used any kelp in several months, maybe even a full year to date. Before I discontinued altogether, it was at 1/4tsp/gal about once a month. In 2011 I used it heavier at 1/4tsp/gal once a week. But at that time I also used K lite at 30-50ppm N once a week ( now down to ~5ppm N daily).

I actually used Seaplex and not Kelpack when I used it, but the micronutrient concentrations should be similar (which there is a pretty complete analysis on Ray's site).

This is not the only plant in my collection demonstrating this growth improvement. This one is just the easiest to photograph. The small bulbo species in general are the most obvious and seem to respond very quickly to changes.
 
Interesting Rick. And about your use of KelpMax? Maybe it is not the KLite which supplies the oligos but the Kelpak. What is your current use of this laste?
Of coarse quantity and frequency. Is it exist an oligos analysis for KelpMax?

If it were the Kelp making the difference the results would also have been as good before macro nutrients were reduced. Since the growth improved by using K-lite + kelp over the growth with MSU+kelp that rules out kelp being the cause of the improved growth.

I'm not saying that kelp is not good just that it is not what has caused improved growth when growers changed from MSU to K-lite.
 
Rick,
Your bulbo is an excellent example of how plant progression should be. I normally judge performance by the size of the leaves, if they are increasing in size or constant(mature size), then everything is ok. Declining size is a symptom of something wrong. Normally that has a connection to nutrients. Additional to that comes deceases etc. which in my mind also is a symptom of some deficiency.
More is not necessarily better, the growth has to be sustainable and experience has shown that frequent additions (in all water) at tiny addition levels are preferrable to the traditional once a week feeding at relatively concentrated levels. On top of that comes of course the micronutrients that probably has to be at higher levels than you get with standard nutrients diluted to e.g. 10ppm N.
 
Lance, an interesting point there, but think it has more to do with the accumulated nutrients than with potassium alone. What I think is that potassium poisoning may have something to do with it but if the overalllevel gets low enough the propolrtions gets less important. So MSU at 10ppm N is ok, at 100ppm its not.
 
If it were the Kelp making the difference the results would also have been as good before macro nutrients were reduced. Since the growth improved by using K-lite + kelp over the growth with MSU+kelp that rules out kelp being the cause of the improved growth.

I'm not saying that kelp is not good just that it is not what has caused improved growth when growers changed from MSU to K-lite.

From a history perspective that is true that I was using the kelp with MSU before the low K trial began.

Also in the first several months of low K I was not using K lite, but MSU diluted with calcium nitrate and magnesium sulfate, and still feeding N at the rate of 80+ppm N weekly.

Also from an dosing/application perspective, the mounted Bulbo has virtually no external NPK storage between feed applications unlike a potted plant. Which I think makes the results more dramatic and due directly to the fert application rather than complications of pot conditions.
 
What I think is that potassium poisoning may have something to do with it but if the overalllevel gets low enough the propolrtions gets less important. So MSU at 10ppm N is ok, at 100ppm its not.

Yes. Actually I would stress that overall level is more important than the proportion all along (for active uptake and accumulation nutrients like K, and the trace metals).

Finding that long term dose max has been the tricky part that still keeps bringing up the proportion/ ratios question.

So 10ppm MSU will have 11-13ppm K compared to 1ppm K if K lite.

Given the good growth I'm seeing at K <1ppm. And some of the new data I've been finding on in situ conditions, I'm leaning towards K concentrations of less than 5ppm being optimal (maybe only 1ppm on sensitive species).

With MSU that's would be feeding at less than 4 ppm N, while you could still run N as high as 50ppm with K lite. 4ppm N is probably still good for what I'm seeing, but a whole separate debate. Some folks are not going to give up their N:wink:
 
Lance, an interesting point there, but think it has more to do with the accumulated nutrients than with potassium alone. What I think is that potassium poisoning may have something to do with it but if the overalllevel gets low enough the propolrtions gets less important. So MSU at 10ppm N is ok, at 100ppm its not.

I think the proportions are important at all levels. It's a recipe that plants want followed when their dinner is prepared. What's in the food is more important that how much food is served. :wink:

Again trying to remember what has been done in the past...
We (many growers including myself) did personal trials using different strengths of what we assumed to be the best ratio of nutrients.
Everything from 0 fertilizer to 2.0ec. all results wound up with what MSU came up with, an amount around 100ppm N.

Most of the ratios were very close to MSU because that is what we (commercial growers) were already using before MSU published their results. Those ratios grew beautiful plants but there was always that random but frequent decline of different groups of plants that was assumed to be due to disease or some environmental problem. The same problems repeated whether Kelp was used or not.

The common thought was how much of what could we increase to make things better, assuming if the plants had plenty available they would take only what they needed and what was healthy. In hind sight that was kind of a big assumption to expect a plant to not be greedy and only eat what is best for it.

We don't know if K is toxic or if high ratios of K causes some other nutrient to become toxic or if "toxic" is even the correct word to use. But what we do know is that growers using the low K formulas are seeing improved growth and a reduction or elimination of the disease symptom issues. No one ever thought to trial the low K concept until Rick "invented" it, we just assumed that plenty of K was a good thing.

Now using the low K ratio growers are getting better growth with small amounts of nutrients compared to MSU. The K is the clue, but what does it do? Perhaps when K levels are high the combination of micro nutrients is the "toxic" problem and it's not the K at all?

This thread is about micro nutrients and how much to apply and as I said we don't know the answer. The amount of micros in K-lite is a guess based on previous knowledge. So far it seems to be working at that ratio but as growers reduce the dosage of the overall fertilizer the micros are getting applied at almost "nothing" amounts. That indicated that the micros are not needed in the previously assumed amounts.

The interesting thing is that we need to test different combinations based on the new concept to determine what micros need to be added, maybe none!. Sodium may become beneficial with the reduction of K, won't know until someone tests it. Maybe silica will need to be added to the formula?
 
Its probably inappropriate to talk about potassium poisoning, I just used that term to describe an unwanted effect by having too much of it. Plants seem to be greedy and overeat potassium. Not only potassium, also nitrate may accumulate, particularly if the micros are deficient.

Sodium seems to be an interesting candidate, perhaps as sodium chloride? Levels? My guesstimate, 10% of the potassium?

Silica is somewhat tricky, much water contains it and its solubility is low. I use a submicron colloidal silica that I disperse 2.5g into 10liters water and then inject that into my water supply with an injector at a 1:16 dilution rate. After that it is allowed to dissolve in my main tank that takes 1400 liters under agitation from bubbling with ozone enriched water. The output of this is entirely dissolved at some 15ppm.

My water is a bit uncommon, its surface water taken from a bog next door and smells of sulphur, hydrogen sulphide presumedly. After treatment, the sulfide is transformed to sulphate and the yellow tainted water is colorless. Conductivity is around 150microSiemens or around 100ppm if that has any significance. pH is close to 7 though. It works well for the orchids, but I do not know what causes the conductivity. Its not calcium or magnesium, probably some sort of sulphates?

The silica addition seems not to make any drastic difference and I believe its a long time thing to find out whether or not its really necessary. Silica fertilising is generally improving plants resistance to a wide range of stresses and moderates the uptake of nutrients as well. Particulaly on phosphorous it seems. With silica fertilisation, same crop can be attained at fertiliser levels down to 50% in some special cases.

What we have seen is the fabolous effect that manganese additions can have on some orchids. My own experience was particularly on Paph randsii, and I have been told that cattley rex also responds very positively to increased Mn levels. Seems that the common fertilisers contain too little or in wrong proportions of some essential micronutrients when applied at the ten ppm level.
 
Bjorn, read my last line in that. I simply don't worry about it.


Ray Barkalow
firstrays.com

Chlorine or sodium? No reason to worry though, its probably inthe fertiliser as impurities anyhow.

The effect of the other micros particularly Manganese are real though:D
 
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