A
ALToronto
Guest
Bjorn, if your bog water has H2S, it likely has a lot of iron. You should check for it.
Macroelements/microelements must be a costant ratio?
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Rick
Well-Known Member
Chlorine or sodium? No reason to worry though, its probably inthe fertiliser as impurities anyhow.
The effect of the other micros particularly Manganese are real though
Chlorine (Cl2) is oxidative (bleaching) gaseous form of chloride. In water in forms hypochlorite HClO3(also bleach). So unless your plants are burning up or turning white, you don't have significant chlorine in the system, but the anion chloride can be quite common.
Also all cations (the majors in surface water are Ca, K, Na, Mg) must be charge balanced with anions (or you are working in extreme acid, base, or potentially explosive situations).
In natural waters the major anions are chloride, sulfate, and bicarbonate ion. In RO based fertilizer systems the predominant anion will be nitrate and phosphate. The chloride and sulfate are often just balanced parts of the trace metal salts, unless special selection of chloride or sulfate salts are used to provide any of the major cations (for instance Epsom salt is Mag sulfate but you can also get chloride, hydoxal, and nitrate salts of magnesium).
Rick
Well-Known Member
Hydrogen sulfide is a toxic gas. With that rotten egg smell threshold at ppb concentrations. If you have it in water at ppm concentrations your nose should be fried and everything dead.
However, the presence of those tiny amounts of H2S often indicate substantial sulfate in the aerobic sites or metal sulfide concentrations in the anaerobic sites (deeper in the sediment).
Biology is at it again with anaerobic bacteria using generally common sulfate ion as an electron ("oxygen" source) for their respiration needs. So they strip the O's from the SO4 and release the toxic H2S as a waste product. High levels (not even1-2ppm) will generally kill everything else in the mud. I've been studying this for the last 5 years as this is a big problem in wild rice production. In the presence of iron (especially) the sulfide binds to metals as insoluble black precipitates. But this works for just about any metal not just iron (which is often the most common heavy metal in the system).
I know, Rick. All those things are familiar to me. Just an inaccuracy that made me forget the correct nomenclature. But what is the difference between chlorine and chloride? Just one single electron, amost nothing!
oke:But I should be ashamed of this blunder, in an earlier life, I used to correct university exams in chemistry, so I should know better, shame on me!:evil:
Rick
Well-Known Member
It's probably not as uncommon as you think Bjorn. What is the hardness?
Sulfate is only an anion. So for charge balanced water you will have sulfates balancing with the major cations (Na, Ca, Mg, K). If the hardness (a measure of calcium and magnesium) is low you probably have mostly sodium as the predominant cation. If hardness is high then the primary salts will be calcium and magnesium sulfates.
"sulfur water" is common here in TN, and its usually very hard (calcium sulfate predominant) with some soluble iron (maybe a full ppm). But stinky with a couple hundred ppb H2S because its coming out of a de-oxygenated aquifer with plenty of sunken organic crap and metal sufides to feed the bugs.
I could probably do an ion mass balance of your water with just a little more info (like hardness and alkalinity)
Guess Rick said it all, most likely the hydrogen sulfide is there at low ppb levels. Strangely, when hydrogen sulfide gets to dangerous levels, one cannot smell it anymore.
Definitely a chance that there is some sulfate in the water, what the counterions are is hard to say, but of course sodium is common in nature? And so is calcium. i do not believe in iron since the water does not give stains, the light yellow color is probably due to humic substances. Once I use the water, its crystal clear so I probably oxidise it in my tank.
Thanks Rick for the offer, but it is not that straight forward. This bog thing is a genuine sphagnum moss located on my property. The bedrock in most of Norway is an ancient igneous and metamorphic rocks type gneiss dominated by plagioclase with granite inbetween. Relatively acid rocks in other words.
To complicate, below the surface layer, and below the sphagnum, is probably a layer of marine sediments (10000years old) composed of clays with shells etc. So our well water is pretty rich in calcium and alkalinity, but the bog water is not. But there are plenty of posibilities of havings a mix of sodium calcium and perhaps magnesium sulphate and even chlorides at a few ppm levels in the bog water. Its proven good for orchids though
Rick
Well-Known Member
To complicate, below the surface layer, and below the sphagnum, is probably a layer of marine sediments (10000years old) composed of clays with shells etc. So our well water is pretty rich in calcium and alkalinity, but the bog water is not. But there are plenty of posibilities of havings a mix of sodium calcium and perhaps magnesium sulphate and even chlorides at a few ppm levels in the bog water. Its proven good for orchids though
Bogs are fed by either local surface water or the ground water below them. And major ion salts just don't go away. (except you can acidify bicarbonate to the point of CO2 release and gas off).
See if you can get the hardness done on your bog water Bjorn. Its a very cheap and easy test for either local health department or aquarium store.
D
DavidCampen
Guest
My current formulation.
This is the formulation that I am currently using:
117 g N (NO3/NH4 = 3.8/1)
21 g P2O5
83 g K2O
54 g Ca
15 g Mg
6 g S
1800 mg Fe
1600 mg Mn
800 mg Zn
600 mg B
300 mg Cu
200 mg Mo
200 mg NaCl
40 mg Co
20 mg Ni
This is diluted to 2 liters and I add 2 - 3 ml per gallon of water (Actually it is a 2 component mixture, each component diluted to 1 liter and I use 10 - 15 ml of each per 10 gallons of water). This will give 30 - 45 ppm of N.
So at 10 ml of each of the 2 solutions to 10 gallons of water gives the following ppm in the watering solution.
30 ppm N
5 ppm P2O5
21 ppm K2O
14 ppm Ca
4 ppm Mg
1.5 ppm S
0.45 ppm Fe
0.4 ppm Mn
0.2 ppm Zn
0.15 ppm B
0.08 ppm Cu
0.05 ppm Mo
0.05 ppm NaCl
0.01 ppm Co
0.005 ppm Ni
This is the formulation that I am currently using:
117 g N (NO3/NH4 = 3.8/1)
21 g P2O5
83 g K2O
54 g Ca
15 g Mg
6 g S
1800 mg Fe
1600 mg Mn
800 mg Zn
600 mg B
300 mg Cu
200 mg Mo
200 mg NaCl
40 mg Co
20 mg Ni
This is diluted to 2 liters and I add 2 - 3 ml per gallon of water (Actually it is a 2 component mixture, each component diluted to 1 liter and I use 10 - 15 ml of each per 10 gallons of water). This will give 30 - 45 ppm of N.
So at 10 ml of each of the 2 solutions to 10 gallons of water gives the following ppm in the watering solution.
30 ppm N
5 ppm P2O5
21 ppm K2O
14 ppm Ca
4 ppm Mg
1.5 ppm S
0.45 ppm Fe
0.4 ppm Mn
0.2 ppm Zn
0.15 ppm B
0.08 ppm Cu
0.05 ppm Mo
0.05 ppm NaCl
0.01 ppm Co
0.005 ppm Ni
Rick
Well-Known Member
I've seen some water that came out of a sulfuric acid plant in Wyoming that was pretty much devoid of hardness (had just 2-3 ppm of Ca and Mg) and was nothing but sodium sulfate and sodium bicarbonate. (Conductivity was ~2000uS/cm)
Interesting that your pH is holding short of 7s.u. with 100ppm of TDS and not getting any significant alkalinity.
Stone
Well-Known Member
OK here's a time series of a plant that has gone thru (and survived) the boom and bust cycle common for me with high K feeding.
This Bulbo unitubum (mounted in wooden basket) was purchased BS multigrowth in 2006. Here in 2007 I'm pretty happy with it, and ultimately total growths got up to 20+
Some where around 2008-2009 it started crashing and I took what was left and tied it to a piece of grape vine. It straggled on and produced a bloom in 2010 (3 months into the early low K program)
Now here it is after 3+ years of low K and "impoverished" feeding.
The old growths (which were mature blooming growths) at the bottom are tiny compared to the new growths. The oldest bulbs are 1.6 cm the newest are 4 cm. The oldest growth with a leaf is 2 cm and the leaf is 5 cm. The leaves on the new growths are 9 cm. The old flower spikes are still attached, and the old growths have 1-3 spikes, while the newest growth has 5 spikes, and still healthy enough to bloom again. From 2006 to 2010 it never produced growths this big or floriferous.
Rick, You have convinced yourself of something that is not there.
I can show you a bulbo which has been growing on a tree fern log (high K content) for at least 8 years. It is fed with osmocote 6% K, and submerged in a high K (+Mg and Ca) fertilizer solution now and then. It also recieves dolomite a couple of times during the growing season.
I would have thought the plant and the mount were pretty saturated in K by now yet no crashing.
If I fail to notice the treefern begining to rot ( usually around 10 years or more), the plant can lose all its roots overnight.
It has not ''crashed'' and it will not crash because of high potassium or potassium blocking Calcium or whatever.
The most probable reason yours did is either because of the above cause or that the roots were too wet during a cold spell or during dormancy and died.
It takes a lot of effort to bring a plant back from that but reducing K is not what gets sets the plant back on the road to recovery. (of course you don't feed anything until you have roots)
If high K made orchids crash, then the cymbidium industry here (for example) would be long dead.
There's an orchid nursery just down the road from me. He specialises in Australian natives but also grows Cyms and some of the best specimens of Laelia species I've seen. He only uses Peters Excell high K + Cal and Mg.
He pots in Bark lava and charcoal. No crashing just explosive growth.
Interesting David,
I see you have an increased amount of Mn as opposed to standard, you add some sodium chloride and you add some cobalt as well.
Also, seems as if your mix is based mostly on nitrates, the sulphur seems low to me? I just wonder, how did you arrive at this composition, by research or grow test?
I am about to set up a new fertiliser mix for my collection and I would perhaps use less nitrate with more sulphate, and less iron, more manganese copper and zinc. Perhaps something like Fe:Mn:Zn something like 1:3:2. Have to do some checks with the current fertiliser mix first. Have been running on low Fe and high urea/ammonium for a year now with increased Mn, Cu and Zn with good results and want to develop further.
Seems a bit similar to my water and I have been wondering whether it could have some sulphate and / or chloride, mainly sodium? Chloride and sodium coming from the marine sediments. Remember as this is a sphagnum bog, most likely there is some rather significant ion exchnage capabilities going on so if seepage water containing calcium comes into the system, it will absorb on the sphagnum releasing H+ and this will neutralise the hydrogencarbonate yielding CO2 that escapes.
Does this sound reasonable?
A
ALToronto
Guest
Rick, Bjorn is right - as long as you can smell H2S, it is harmless. After all, our own bodies produce it, but no matter how toxic a bathroom may seem, the odour hasn't killed anyone yet. It's when you stop smelling it that you have to worry.
I used to work at a nuclear power plant that had a heavy water plant on the grounds, so those of us who rode bicycles to work past the heavy water plant had to carry oxygen kits. Heavy water production uses H2S for isotopic separation of water.
I used to work at a nuclear power plant that had a heavy water plant on the grounds, so those of us who rode bicycles to work past the heavy water plant had to carry oxygen kits. Heavy water production uses H2S for isotopic separation of water.
Interesting, where in the process is the hydrogen sulfide? Is it to sepaprate ot the deuterium?
Rick
Well-Known Member
If you are exchanging Ca for H ( a reasonable process in sphagnum) the pH drops to very low levels (less than 4.0 where bicarbonate, alkalinity, is truly at 0ppm).
Now pure water at conductivity 0 uS/cm can have a pH of 7 with 0 alkalinity, but at conductivity of 100uS it's hard to imagine. That sulfuric acid plant process produced a ton of sulfide, and without massive amounts of soda ash (sodium carbonate), the pH and dissolved oxygen would drop to very low levels and kill everything.
I could probably make a solution of sodium sulfate and sodium chloride in DI water with a just off neutral pH, but I suspect it would not be a stable pH and want to drop. Also even a hint of iron would drop the pH.
Could be possible that some alkali silicates are buffering the system.
Need to get your water tested at a good lab Bjorn.:wink:
Rick
Well-Known Member
Yup
The odor threshold for humans is 0.0047ppm
The OSHA 8 hour PEL is 10ppm.
I think your nose gets desensitized at 1-5ppm.
People die at 800ppm in 5 minutes, but will go unconscious at lower levels and unable to get away from it, but you'll never smell it at this level!
