Issue with multis - leaf flopping over

[Stone]

Also keep in mind that roots of epiphytes (especially those giant vanda roots) are not inorganic hollow pipes, but living, organic, photosynthesizing, and productive part of the whole plant.

And also consider the species that are nothing but roots year round or most of the year.


The plant is actually the root, and the leaves/flower just a transient reproductive stage in those cases.

Not quite sure of your point here. A plant is a plant whether it has leaves or not. The roots however are the main nutrient gathering organs and the longer they are the more they get to eat.

 

[Stone]

Are you sure about this, Mike? This page is in Japanese, but search for "cluster", and you'll see huge Phalaenopsis specimen plants.

http://ranwild.org/Phalaenopsis/monthly/monthlyhead.html

P. pulchra, P. luddemaniana, P. schilleriana, P. stuartiana etc. Each photo is a single individual. They were originally grown in Phillipine, and imported to Japan. It is not easy to achieve this (maybe easier with P. pulchra) in the temperate zone for some reason (maybe higher temp).

I'll need to have a longer look at this naoki. Superb plants! from the qiute look I only saw multi planted slabs and with perhaps lots of keikis growing but not too many clups arising from the same stem. But even so, I don't believe they are particularly long lived plants compared to some orchids. Perhaps that is why they are so prone to producing kiekis on the flower stem or the roots.
But all this aside, My point was that I don't see a reason to blame feeding- which produced a massive plant-to also be suddenly the cause of it's demise.
How does that part work?
I was looking for another possibility for the plants downfall. Age? Infection? Sudden chill? could be anything. If it's feeding doing it, why does it take a decade? Doesn't make sense...... K does not take a decade to build up in the tissues and cause problems does it?

 

[gonewild]

But those N fixing organisms are every where in the soil and on leaves and ALL plants and trees utilize them not just orchids and they need a massive root system to gather it.

In Nature they are everywhere. But in captive environments they are largely missing.

You can grow a plant in the ground well without fertilizer

Not in my yard!

but put it in a pot and you need to feed a lot to get even close to the same growth wether there is N-fixing or not.....and there usually is.

That is the old school way of thinking. Other organisms besides N-fixing exist and provide various forms of nutrients for plants and more than just N. Learning the correct nutrient ratios is allowing the use of less fertilizer in container growing.

So in cultivation the N-fixing factor is largely irrelevant and not to be relyed on.

Again you are using "old school thinking". Better way...If we can't have living organisms in our pots then we need to learn to mimic the nutrients they provide to the plant types we grow. Historically we just pour on as much fertilizer as we can without damaging the plant and assume the plant will only take just what it needs and no more. New fact.... plants do over eat and in so doing get in less than perfect physical condition.

Show me those fantastic orchids

I use fertilizer, way too much! I was referring to previous comments about people that grow specimen plants and never or rarely fertilize, didn't you say that a few times? oke:

 

[gonewild]

Pretty sure many were fed at every watering. But the intervals are not important in this discussion. The responce to concentrations is.

But intervals and frequency is important in this discussion!

Most Phal growers and Phal trials water and fertilize once per week or as long as 10 days.
I asked if you had reference to a trial so we could compare the trial you mentioned to watering with low N dose of 5ppm every day as Rick stated he does.
Interval and frequency makes a huge difference. How does 5ppm everyday compare to 200ppm once per week? It's well known that Phals in commercial culture get their nutrients directly from irrigation water and not the media. It is also known that if you can manage a media that allows for more frequent irrigations the plants grow faster. Phal growers apply 200 ppm N once per week and the roots soak up what they can and use the N until the roots dry then they don't grow until they get watered again (basically). How does the frequency of watering everyday with 5ppmN compare to an interval of ten days with 200ppmN.
Frequency is directly related to concentration of nutrients for plant growth.

 

[gonewild]

K does not take a decade to build up in the tissues and cause problems does it?

As you said most Phals don't live a decade. Most die much sooner.

It seems K can build up to toxic levels (depending of genetic tolerance) within a few years time. Many growers experience batches of seedlings that grow very well and lush for a couple seasons and then suddenly the batch starts to decline, get rot and die off... for no apparent reason with no environmental failures. They question is is the sudden disease problem caused by random bacteria or is it a result of too much K.

Some individual plants probably have more tolerance to high K levels than others so there is a random presentation of problems.

 

[Brabantia]

But intervals and frequency is important in this discussion!
How does the frequency of watering everyday with 5ppmN compare to an interval of ten days with 200ppmN.
Frequency is directly related to concentration of nutrients for plant growth.

I would have preferred 5 ppm each day compared with 50 ppm all the ten days.
In Phalaenopsis culture I am pretty sure on bases of what I have seen the Dutch distribute the fertlyser each day. In the morning this an automatic distribution

 

[gonewild]

In Phalaenopsis culture I am pretty sure on bases of what I have seen the Dutch distribute the fertlyser each day. In the morning this an automatic distribution

They water approximately every 5-7 days. And they apply concentrations of 150-200ppm N with every watering.

If we assume they watered every 7 days and applied only 150ppn N each time that would be equivalent to 21ppm N every day. But not really because the roots are only wetted once in the time frame. The math does start to resemble Ricks small daily doses of 5ppm N.

What benefits the plant more 5ppm N per day or 35ppm N once per week?

 

[Rick]

after Bjorn's post about pot bound paph roots, I was cracking up when poking around the GH this morning.



These stonei seedlings are just sitting in an empty plastic tote. The plant on the left ran a root over to the plant on the right, traveling past the potted one between them.:rollhappy: It's only been a couple weeks max since I pulled these guys out of the tote to check them too.

I ended up breaking the tip off the root trying to pull it out of the basket it had grown into. but no shortage of roots coming out of these baskets.

 

[emydura]

That is amazing Rick. I would have thought once the root tip was out of the potting mix and in thin air it would die off. But they keep growing like the roots of a Phalaenopsis

 

[Bjorn]

Wonderful Rick! I see that as well, but it is entirely dependent on ultra-high humidity, so I rarely see it on top of the pots. Under the pots however there are relatively often some roots peeking out and wandering around. Onthe top however, occasionally but quite rarely there is a root sneaking into the neighbours to have a forbidden taste. Of course with baskets, this incidence must be much more common, - as long as you keep the environment moist enough. People tend to underwater IMHO so I guess it a rare phenomenon after all. Pls look after those ferns, they tend to take over the pot and easily transform into a problem. I weed them all the time. For some reason, I have been invaded by at least three tropical kinds, that never were deliberately introduced, plus adiantums, that I introduced deliberately. The adiantums are not invasive but with the others there is a constant battle!:arrr::arrr::fight:

 

[Rick]

Wonderful Rick! I see that as well, but it is entirely dependent on ultra-high humidity, so I rarely see it on top of the pots. Under the pots however there are relatively often some roots peeking out and wandering around. Onthe top however, occasionally but quite rarely there is a root sneaking into the neighbours to have a forbidden taste. Of course with baskets, this incidence must be much more common, - as long as you keep the environment moist enough. People tend to underwater IMHO so I guess it a rare phenomenon after all. Pls look after those ferns, they tend to take over the pot and easily transform into a problem. I weed them all the time. For some reason, I have been invaded by at least three tropical kinds, that never were deliberately introduced, plus adiantums, that I introduced deliberately. The adiantums are not invasive but with the others there is a constant battle!:arrr::arrr::fight:

Yes You are quite right on needing the ultra humidity to perpetuate that kind of root growth with the paphs. These baskets are kept in a plastic tote, so sometimes there is a little extra water on the bottom of the box for an extended period of time, and I'm sure the humidity down in the tote is higher than for the baskets hanging in the GH. And as you noted in your other thread, I've been able to water much heavier without root rot at lower feed rates.

Yes ferns all over and lots of weeding. Sometimes I think this helps give the paphs in baskets something secure to root into once the sphagnum starts to wash out. Lots of times I chop off the tops leaving the roots behind rather than pulling the whole mess out.