CITES - conserving or destroying?

[Sirius]

May be Xavier has two accounts because at one time he really liked paph. sanderianum but now he leans more toward paph. rothschildianum .

:rollhappy:

 

[Hien]

Everything in the world can be presented in different versions (including orchids' events). Let us enjoy both versions and enjoy each other no matter what.
Here are examples of different interpretations, let's see if you won't feel a little better after watching them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au6c-Xtab4Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7a7GlTn4ng&feature=related

Somebody please slap me if you think I am a little bit silly and inappropriate in a serious discussion.

Notice , what Tom Jones said " I beg you are a lying son of a gun, don't you'

 

[gonewild]

Everything in the world can be presented in different versions (including orchids' events). Let us enjoy both versions and enjoy each other no matter what.
Here are examples of different interpretations, let's see if you won't feel a little better after watching them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au6c-Xtab4Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7a7GlTn4ng&feature=related

Somebody please slap me if you think I am a little bit silly and inappropriate in a serious dicussion.

Notice , what Tom Jones said " I beg you are a lying son of a gun, don't you'

Thankfully Slippertalk runs the Sammy style of discussion.

 

[Roth]

I am asking for moderator assistance. My partner and I feel insulted buy this Roth character. This has devolved into an outback slanging match. I am fed up with the insults. I know the manager and submanager of Thailand CITES and many legitimate orchids growers here who do propagate, who do care about conservation and who lement the situation here like we do. Roth has chosen to label people I know within CITES as liars, and foreigners living in Thailand as drug users and whoremongers. If the administrator does not act, it will show a certain lack of quality in this forum.

Brett

I don't speak about any people 'you know' as drug users and whoremongers. I talk about my experience, that's it. I have two friends as well in the CITES in Thailand fyi. I know Thailand a bit better than you I am sure orchidwise, and sometimes what you see is not what happens.

You have to agree with me that nothing has changed over the last 20 years, so the people can talk about whatever they want, there is no effect.

They have everything to do their jobs, there has even been hidden cameras stories several times, etc... but nothing is done. The stories about the 'corrupt officials' is as well bullshit. If they wanted to act, they could do instant, at any time. There could be a general CITES Trade ban issued by the CoP until they solve their problem of massive wild collection. No more crocodile bags and belts, ivory dildos, allowed to be exported until they solve their problem.

Nothing is done, you don't agree with me ? I think then in Thailand it would take 2 hours after such a ban to solve all the problems of wild plants and animals they have. They know absolutely EVERYTHING, so ???

Don't tell me that the people opposite the Jatujak mall are 'protected by a governor'. They are not. I have heard crazy stories from people that they were protected, bribing the police, etc... In fact Nok E., that you must know there in this market, said herself that it is just a 'hit and miss'. They do not bribe anyone, they get fined, that's it... and they accept it because they still earn more than they loose.

I have seen people growing anitum, gigantifolium, and hangianum in Thailand, 4 years now. Not always easily, but doing ok. Those suceeding have bothered to treat species with individual care per species.
Brett

I know about some of them, and I agree. I have two friends in Thailand who have very beautiful gigantifolium for some years, though they loose some every year to the orange rot.

Now, tell me how many PERCENTAGE of plants do those people own out of everything that has been collected. One per dozen thousands ? When those people will die or loose their interest in orchids, what is going to happen to their plants ? What in 50 years from now ? That's my position, we do whatever we want, whatever we can to propagate/protect the plants, or their habitat, but it is highly unlikely that in 200 years from now there will be all the species of paph still alive. I would say maybe 30-40 percent will still be around, the others will join the diplodocus and the dodo.

I visited a Thai grower who had amazing wild leucochilum for many years. He died in the 90's. As of today, his plants, and the progeny from those, are nearly gone. Another 50 years, all from his collection - the best in Thailand at that time - will be gone, trust me.

hmm

If I'm not mistaken ROth's real name is Xavier something ( can't write his french name its too complicated) he has several accounts here.
just like me :rollhappy:

Now Roth gives the impression that he knows everything about everything so do even start arguing with him its a waste of time.

Roth is excellent in presenting his own presumptions as facts but for people who knows him, well we know that he's just a cheap trick not worth the attention

Uri Baruk, I feel so sad to have helped hobbyists in France not to get any problems with the customs, you know that?

I do not know everything, but I know pretty much everything that happens in the paph world.

Now, yes I know quite a bit about you.

The 'cheap trick not worth the attention' is here:

http://www.douane.gouv.fr/data/dab/pdf/03-064.pdf

Xavier Garreau de Loubresse f.y.i.
In the customs list of expert and technical advisors, that's an official document.

Of course if you know people, about the National School of Customs in Rouen, they will tell you that I have been part time teacher. I do not work anymore over there, because I am a bit far to be of any use. That's it.

So what do you have to say about that?

Uri, you play very well about the name you dont remember, I like it. I think you got some documents officially with my name right, you don't remember? How STUPID I have been to help you...

You let too a bitter taste to the Senat Botanical Gardens if I remember well, and some hobby orchid societies...

 

[Mark Sullivan]

CITES and Conservation

I didn't read all the posts in the thread, but as a few people have said CITES is a trade agreement not a conservation agreement. CITES only goes into affect if a species is considered endangered, and crosses the border between one or more participating parties. It is also interpreted and applied differently by countries that are partied to the agreement.

The word conservation only appears in the CITES document three times:
Article XI
Conference of the Parties
3. At meetings, whether regular or extraordinary, the Parties shall review the implementation of the present Convention and may:
(c) review the progress made towards the restoration and conservation of the species included in Appendices I, II and III;

and same article:
7. Any body or agency technically qualified in protection, conservation or management of wild fauna and flora, in the following categories, which has informed the Secretariat of its desire to be represented at meetings of the Conference by observers, shall be admitted unless at least one-third of the Parties present object:

and
Article XII
The Secretariat
1. Upon entry into force of the present Convention, a Secretariat shall be provided by the Executive Director of the United Nations Environment Programme. To the extent and in the manner he considers appropriate, he may be assisted by suitable inter-governmental or non-governmental international or national agencies and bodies technically qualified in protection, conservation and management of wild fauna and flora.

Trying to change CITES is like hitting your head against a wall even for those that have any influence. A lot of energy over the years has been spent railing and talking about CITES, it exists and is not going to change anytime soon. So if you care about conservation you have to work with and around CITES. Can things be done about conservation? Yes.

New post soon,

 

[Sirius]

Mark, it appears that the forum software is editing your custom user title. Apparently, it won't let anyone have the word "admin" in their user title, unless they are a forum admin. Just wanted to let you know in case you wanted to change it.

 

[Mark Sullivan]

Orchid Conservation - What can be done?

There are people trying to make a difference and save orchid habitat and orchid in situ. A list of some: http://www.orchidconservationcoalition.org/conservationorgs.html

Admittedly I am bias but an a small step anyone could take is to get there orchid society to participate in 1% for Orchid Conservation. It get societies and their members to participate in orchid conservation.

Orchid Societies and businesses that participate in 1% FOC commit to budget 1% or more of their net revenue towards in situ orchid conservation projects of their choice. Through 1% for Orchid Conservation we want to create a network of orchid societies and businesses to raise money for in situ orchid conservation. The Orchid Conservation Coalition does not take donations or distribute money. More details: http://www.orchidconservationcoalition.org/program.html

Right now there are 18 orchid societies and 5 businesses that make up the coalition: http://www.orchidconservationcoalition.org/participants.html

Any society around the world can participate. We are trying to have a direct impact on saving orchids in situ.

For more information or to receive at the most a bi monthly update you can e-mail me at [email protected]
The current update is here: http://www.orchidconservationcoalition.org/update/21.html

I realize that this may seem like a big ad, but we are very non-profit -meaning absolutely no money. We try and raise money and awareness for other worthwhile non profit orchid conservation organizations.

I will write other post of which us as individuals maybe able to have on orchid conservation and maybe even CITES, but it will have to be hopefully tomorrow.

 

[Mark Sullivan]

Thank you John. It is ok with me that I am *****istrator of 1%FOC.

 

[Roth]

Point is, allow the corrupt and peasants to strip the forests, or free up flasked plants world wide. We arent going to win on preservation in the long run.

Just one note like that... I imported one of the very few legal gigantifolium plants in Europe with a CITES. I made flasks, sold flasks with invoice and CITES copy. The only thing I allowed by doing this? Preserving the species? Allowing artificial propagation? No, I just laundered by mistake all the wild collected gigantifolium all around Europe from before and after, allowing traders to make more profit and business.

That's a point, legalizing some species will not preserve them, it will just allow sellers to deal wild plants in a legally safe environment. I think Antec could speak about vietnamense at lenght... few flasks released, all the wild plants legalized.

 

[Marc]

hmm

If I'm not mistaken ROth's real name is Xavier something ( can't write his french name its too complicated) he has several accounts here.
just like me :rollhappy:

Now Roth gives the impression that he knows everything about everything so do even start arguing with him its a waste of time.

Roth is excellent in presenting his own presumptions as facts but for people who knows him, well we know that he's just a cheap trick not worth the attention

The discussion that is taking place here is so far over my head that I have nothing to add that would be relevant.

However I do want to point out that eventhough this forum has very open discussions taking place I would consider it to be a bad thing if users are allowed to have multiple accounts on one forum.

I used to be a forum admin on a forum that has nothing to do with orchids but I clearly remember that there was at least an option to see which users have posted from the same IP. Of course this is not foolproof and there are workarounds but I at least hope that the official stance of this forum is that using multiple accounts is not tolerated.

 

[Heather]

However I do want to point out that eventhough this forum has very open discussions taking place I would consider it to be a bad thing if users are allowed to have multiple accounts on one forum.

Hi Marc,

We agree and made that rule adaptation today:
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21116

 

[Sirius]

At this point, the thread should be back on track. Xavier has made his statements, and some of you disagree with him. Instead of crying that he offended you, and using separate accounts to belittle him, why don't you rebut his arguments with some evidence or account to the contrary. Or could it be that he is more right than any of you want to admit?

 

[Howzat]

To Mark Sullivan and CITES,
What you said about insitu conservation works well in western countries. This effort should be commended. Thus CITES policy and control of the cross border traffic of wild collected orchids was actually based on this presumption. ie If it works in USA/Europe and other western countries , it should work in Asia. . However from this forum here we learned that pillaging is still continuing with report that orchids are being sold by the kilo and also transported by truck load. Mark, how would you and your organisation and CITES enforcers react to this and have you and your CITES enforcers friend done something about this???? A 10 metre high wall encircling the habitat might work for a while, before somebody blow it up.
I still believe that to conserve Asian Paphiopedilum/ S.American Phragmipedium in the best possible way is to produce as many seedlings as you can, artificially. And stop chasing the "illegal" parent. Be a little more practical and pragmatic in your approach to conservation, particularly for Asiatic Paph and S.American Phrag.

 

[NYEric]

True. There's plenty of plants in you're own backyard that are worth enjoying without worrying about possessing something from the other side of the world.

When I own the last asian orchid species in the world I'm not selling it back for propigation and re-introduction into the wild after this statement!

 

[Hien]

When I own the last asian orchid species in the world I'm not selling it back for propigation and re-introduction into the wild after this statement!

Plant those last survived asian orchid species in your backyard.
See how easily you can fulfill both aims at the same time.:rollhappy:

 

[NYEric]

There aren't a lot of orchids from NYC so without getting orchids from the "other side of the world" I'd pretty much have no orchid collection!

 

[gonewild]

There aren't a lot of orchids from NYC so without getting orchids from the "other side of the world" I'd pretty much have no orchid collection!

Probably would have been cheaper for you to move to the other side.

 

[NYEric]

Wow!

 

[Rick]

Wow!

You don't even have a backyard Eric. You grow your orchids on the stove.oke:oke:

 

[Hien]

Evidently some species need no CITES protection.
In fact it is human that need protection from them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3Bf0WhvsNk&feature=related

Watch the fish attack those bow hunters, it is hilarious

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc-e8EGkLMo