CITES - conserving or destroying?

Discussion in 'Orchid Conservation' started by s1214215, Apr 17, 2011.

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  1. May 30, 2011 #101

    Howzat

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    By the truck load ????????? That is horrible to hear. Why isn't anybody with contact in the high echelon of the USFW to start pressing them that their policy of emphasizing on the legality of parent plants is failing to suppress the pillaging of orchids??? Why, AOS as the orchids fraternity umbrella is just sitting pretty and not being proactive in identifying that USFW policy is failing. Breeding as many as you possible can, will reverse the situation.
     
  2. May 30, 2011 #102

    s1214215

    s1214215

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    Even if they do change how they follow policy in the USA, propagation is unlikely to change the buying habits of many people in Asia. The domestic demand for illegally collected orchids is vast in many SE Asian countries, China etc is voracious and greatly outweighs what is sent to the West.

    Propagated orchids can not compete pricewise and from my experience, it seems the average member of the public could care less is the plant has superior form. Cheap is best and logical if you are on low wages in particular.

    Throw in official corruption/involvment in orchid smuggling, and this is not likely to stop.

    My irritation with the restriction of orchids being propagated and sent abroad (Viet paphs etc) is that is restricting preservation in collections. These plants may one day be able to replace plants into the wild that will be stripped out in the comming years

    Brett
     
  3. May 30, 2011 #103

    Roth

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    Anyway, preservation in collections is bullshit for nearly all species. Most paph species need frequent reintroduction from the wild to 'survive in cultivation'.

    That's one of the problems too, we don't know how to grow most paph species beyond a few years, except a very few individual plants, we have to face the truth about that.

    Paphiopedilum delenatii, rothschildianum, philippinense, callosum... etc... survived for long time in our collections without reintroduction.

    Paphiopedilum hangianum, emersonii, most die after a couple of years from lack of proper care.

    Paphiopedilum helenae, vietnamense, etc... the same. For vietnamense, the plants do not last very long overall in most nurseries, and they have to flask in a hurry the next generation. Sometimes they forget to make flasks quickly enough, and there is a massive shortage, like now in Europe...

    Paphiopedilum mastersianum, acmodontum, wentworthianum, bougainvilleanum, violascens, ciliolare, randsii, anitum, ooii, intaniae, gigantifolium, urbanianum, hennissianum etc... needed and need periodic collection from the wild to still 'exist in culture', let's face the truth.

    Of course, I guess some people will tell me that they know flasks have been done here once, and that there are some individual plants that are alive for many years. That's true, but it is absolutely insignificant compared to the overall situation. Most of the time too, like randsii, the few flasks that I know of have been made with plants that subsequently died afterwards, and the only hope is to get a couple of seedlings to blooming size, make flasks out of them, etc... A slight human mistake, and the species is lost in cultivation.

    No one realize how many plants have been exported/imported from the wild. It is tremendous, and some species are still very rare to extinct in cultivation, such as sangii, wentworthianum bougainvilleanium ( last time was the Orchid Zone who did a selfing years ago, nowadays, the newer seedlings were violascens by mistake, as acknowledged by the sellers...), mastersianum (exported by thousands, extremely rare still in cultivation as properly, healthy plants)

    Adductum? It has been propagated by Antec over 15 years ago, same for hookerae. Can anyone show me one photo of one blooming plant from those days, or their progeny? None. All the adductum, either blooming size, or seedlings, come from the frequent importation from the wild every couple of years.

    Conservation through propagation is, at present time, a nice wish, but does not fit the harsh truth. I will believe it when I will have seen the hundreds of seedlings of wentworthianum and bougainvilleanum from the 4000 plants importation of Paul Gripp in the 80's, or from adductum from the massive 1990 import. Then, I will believe. Today, I know it is very far from the truth.
     
  4. May 30, 2011 #104

    s1214215

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    Sorry Roth..

    I dont agree.. I have seem a number of the species you claim impossible to grow in the long term well cultivated in private collections. And not new plants.

    I find in SE Asia a huge problem is people gooseing their plants with hormones and fertilizers and that later fall over as a result.. Maybe thats the issue.. Secondly growing plants in climatic conditions they dont belong in.

    Look, I dont really care what you say.. I can see we wont agree. From what I have seen travelling in Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia and various other SE Asian countries, locals dont give a toss about preservations (rich or poor).

    If you want these species to survive in the wild, good luck, because your own are destroying it. And thats NOT for a export to the West. I have been in Thailand long enough to know people researching illegal plant trades who have stated so. Big inflows to China, Japan, Thailand, and others. they also cite political involvement in several SE Asian nations.

    Brett
     
  5. May 30, 2011 #105

    Roth

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    Definitely, and I do have those even growing well. But what's the percentage compared to everything that has been sold? Less than a few per dozen thousands...

    For anitum on the other side, I grow them in asplenium fern roots. Any attempt to grow them in anything else failed ( and I have yet to see well grown anitum with 4-5 flowers elsewhere. They cannot stand of sphag mos, bark, or anything we usually use, or they just throw one or two weak flowers, weak growths, and eventually die after a couple of years).

    Wentworthianum, I have several, I know there are 1 plant still alive in Switzerland, 1-2 in the USA, in good thriving condition, no more. Maybe we can add worldwide up to 50, but Paul Gripp collected 2000 of those, and the later imports in 1996 numbered another 1500. Five years ago 200. Imports that I don't know ( unlikely but...), total 4000 plants. 50 out of 4000 is quite bad.

    Stonei, I imported legally ( They are in the database) 550 CLUMPS to Europe in 1996. I still have the three best ones. ALL the others, sold to Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, England, are dead.

    It's true, especially in Taiwan, they tend to overfeed grossly, at least some growers. Same in Thailand. But in Australia, USA or Europe, I don't know many people who have randsii gigantea for many years still alive, or anitum in good condition as an example...

    That's absolutely true unfortunately. What is untrue is that we won't agree... Let's say that the problem is not only to claim about conservation through propagation, I know it does not work from many examples. The problem is to know how to grow the plants well. And it needs a lot of analysis and studies, as some plants have very specific requirements ( Dendrobium jacobsonii, many dozen thousands plants have been exported, exceedingly few alive, anywhere in the world. They have specific requirements.). If people study the specific requirements, and are not completely blinded by so-called scientists who claims that all plants need the same feeding, AND make propagation, then it can work. Otherwise, in its present status, it is just impossible.

    I was closer to one of the former CITES chief in Geneva than anyone else. I do not expect, anyway, those species to survive in the wild. I expect many to be extinct in the next century, and I am sure it will happen, no matter what we will do...

    The people researching illegal plant trade know absolutely nothing, they imagine a lot of things, that's another problem ( and the get sponsorship and money by spreading false informations, instead of doing their investigation job, at least several I know of, who spent more time in Nana and similar place than investigating). Political involvement, maybe for some things like ivory. Plants, they just pass the borders through corrupt individuals, many times by luck, but there is no real 'network' with a 'big boss'.

    And for things like the jungle sellers opposite the Jatujak mall, they are here for decades, they are fined, and their stocks regularly seized, but the profit far outperforms any fine, that's the truth behind the story...
     
  6. May 30, 2011 #106

    s1214215

    s1214215

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    One of the sources citing political involvement was senior CITES. A particular provincial governor was named as being a major controller and untouchable.

    You sound like a lot of hypocritical SE Asian well to do/foreigners gone native that like to accuse foreigners here or someone you dont like as whoremongers when their points of view dont match yours. Not all people here live in gogo bars or whorehouse, drop that reference please.

    I do completely agree on this point.. Some plants need individual care and requirements. Perhaps thats why some people can grow some plants well. You will have to be a very well travelled individual to see all the plants in the collections around the world Roth. I only lay claim to what I have seen.

    Agreed, the makets at JJ have been around along time. I guess so have the stalls in Vietnam, Cambodia, Burma and Malaysia that I have seen. Point is, allow the corrupt and peasants to strip the forests, or free up flasked plants world wide. We arent going to win on preservation in the long run. Save what we can I say.
     
  7. May 30, 2011 #107

    Rick

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    I think fad and style changes are most influential in what makes paph species popular in collections over many years.

    Lots of people just think they are ugly, and a lot of species look to close to each other to get the average collector the impetus to keep bench space for it.

    A lot of people are primarily in it for the $ and can't afford to be a Noah's Ark of slipper orchids. So every 10 or so years after the original excitement wheres off, they dust off a stray stud plant, generate a few flasks that get hobbyists pumped up, make some cash, and put the plant away again. Gotta pay the bills. And probably 90% of the seedlings go down the tubes.

    Dedicated hobbyists do have the potential to breed the snot out of plants, but only a fraction ever do. I find that most get overwhelmed in seedling grow-out, and give up the pace after a few years (when they may be on there second GH:poke::poke:). This drives the prices down so that commercial breeders can't even make a living. This keeps the experts with the plants and resources out of the game for even longer "no-breed" cycles.

    Hobbyists themselves come and go on time frames that don't support long term conservation aspects of orchid growing.

    No one organization can handle this, and organizing the multitude of hobbyists is like herding cats.


    You might have some luck doing things on a species by species basis instead of all paphs. Actually Leo suggested something like this for just a way of hobbyists to focus their skills.

    I've brought this up many times, but zoos do this with different endangered species, by developing what is known as the Species Survival Plan. A consortium of zoos gets together to generate an "Ark" for the particular organism of focus. USFW buys off on this to facilitate the movement of breeding stock. This can include an importation of wild stock. No significant money changes hands, everything is on "breeding loan". But no body goes to jail.:wink:

    Obviously the process is funded by zoo visitors and other patrons of the facility (same as hobbyists have jobs to pay for their addictions). Eventually overproduction (of species suitable to release to general public), can be released to an approved hobbyist market.
     
  8. May 30, 2011 #108

    Roth

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    Honestly I have heard this kind of legend before, and I know from many cases, including Thailand, that it is not true...

    The second problem is that no one on the enforcement side knows how to identify wild plants, or what they are.

    The third problem, the fines are too low, so that's just a kind of tax. Get caught today, make profit tomorrow for most of those people.

    No, for the whoremonger ( and cocain), that was absolutely true unfortunately.

    Let me tell the story. As a customs expert, I went to Geneva to meet Ger van Vliet, the CITES general director at that time.

    He showed me some videos from Jatujak, and another wild collected orchid market close to Chiang Mai, with several foreign people dealing in massive quantities.

    The investigation went under way, and they asked the WWF to help. I was going to Thailand a couple of months later, so I told him I would meet with those WWF (and one Greenpeace people too...). So did I, and my friend Krairit Vejvarut told me that there was no risk they would find anything.

    In the evening he brought me to a local style of Nana plaza, those guys were here with several jungle orchid sellers drinking and choosing bar girls. You can ask a ladyboy selling orchids from Malaysia at Jatujak...

    Some months later, they reported that there was nothing to report, end of the story.

    In the raptor story, some people from the Emirates invited CITES and WWF expert for a tour. Deluxe, and more deluxe journey. Afterwards, all the wild raptors became captive bred, nothing to say, nothing to see...

    Indeed, but in many cases it's by luck. And the next grower who ll get that plant maybe will not follow. The best sangii I have ever seen in my life, maybe 20 growths 4 years from a single jungle growth, was growing in living forest moss in France.

    I did indeed see many collections... Not all the plants around the world, but I know the source of pretty much everything that comes from Asia, and pretty much everything worth of interest in paphs. That's why I know the anitum in Taiwan have been collected 3 years ago, I know even the collector, the way it has been exported, the way it has been imported ( at that time through Kaoshiung by cargo, but shortly afterwards there has been a big scandal and the network collapsed here), and who wholesaled them in Taiwan. I know too that a thousand anitum have been imported 3 years ago, and less than 200 were still alive in february, bad condition, starting to die.

    That's my point too. We cannot imagine saving every species, this will be impossible. But we have to accept that, at the end, in some years, decades or centuries, most species will be extinct.

    I was optimistic 15 years ago, made a lot of seedlings, distributed a lot of plants. I started to be pessimistic when I realized pretty much all had died.

    Take again the adductum from Antec ( and I know exactly from where the original plants came). They released over 200 flasks of 30 seedlings. That's 6000. NONE is still with us today.

    Take wentworthianum. 4000 wild plants, less than 50 in collections, 2 only from the 80's import ( one at Fox Valley, the other one belonging to Jo Levy, that's all period), the remaining from the 90's onwards.

    Let's assume they are propagated. 6000 seedlings in the next 20 years. Let's say it is easier to grow than adductum (it's not.) and 500 will reach blooming size as healthy, gorgeous plants (they won't, believe me).

    When the owners of those plants will die, and they will. Those 50 original plants will be grown by other people. Add the 500 others from seed, in 20 years,

    From experience, 50 survived out of 4000. Out of 550 in 20 years, 8 will be alive 10 years later.
     
  9. May 30, 2011 #109

    Howzat

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    Brett
    You said the domestic demand is huge and fuel pillaging of the species, but probably those villagers or even the city people can grow better than us here, which have to resort to creating artificial environment.
    I agree with you that restricting the flow of artificially propagated species is restricting the conservation of species in private collection. But this is correct with USA. I think Australia does not restrict species in jars coming in.
     
  10. May 30, 2011 #110

    s1214215

    s1214215

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    Hi. Sorry Oz is beggining to restrict.. Some nurseries have had glass flasks rejected. Some AQIS offices are now requesting plastic only. Idiocy, but thats another matter.

    No, the peasants dont grow them.. Why would they. They also by and large dont propagate... Immediate resale is the thing they do, selling to wholesales that get them to bring to distrubution areas like Bangkok, a major hub in plant trafficking. No the locals here cant grow them well. its too hot for most species.

    ps.. sorry if some dont like my use of peasant as a term.. It is really just to describe accurately and not derogatorily.
     
  11. May 30, 2011 #111

    s1214215

    s1214215

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    I am asking for moderator assistance. My partner and I feel insulted buy this Roth character. This has devolved into an outback slanging match. I am fed up with the insults. I know the manager and submanager of Thailand CITES and many legitimate orchids growers here who do propagate, who do care about conservation and who lement the situation here like we do. Roth has chosen to label people I know within CITES as liars, and foreigners living in Thailand as drug users and whoremongers. If the administrator does not act, it will show a certain lack of quality in this forum.

    Brett
     
  12. May 30, 2011 #112

    Hien

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    Maybe the situation of species not surviving in collection after a while would improve a little bit with more peoples who really care about growing the species & with extensive knowledge about them.
    We tend to favor the hybrids too much (from the perception that they are more perfect beauty wise, in reality, they are created to conform to Orchid societies' judging standard).
    For example, I used to favor (used to collect them as well ) the many beautiful dendrobium Yamamoto Nobile hybrids which would dazzle the public.
    On the other hand, I did a search and realized that there were many (more than 20 ) pure species nobile cultivars registered at one time, now nobody have or grow them.
    So it would be the case for paphs as well as you pointed out.
     
  13. May 30, 2011 #113

    s1214215

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    I have seen people growing anitum, gigantifolium, and hangianum in Thailand, 4 years now. Not always easily, but doing ok. Those suceeding have bothered to treat species with individual care per species.

    Brett
     
  14. May 30, 2011 #114

    gonewild

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    I will comment that as an uninvolved reader I do not see anything written that defames you or anyone else.

    Roth stated his opinions and so did you. If you feel insulted, this forum provides you a place to explain why he is not correct in your opinion.

    I suggest to respond to him using polite words and help to educate the people that might actually make a difference in the future.

    The fact that a moderator will not intervene shows the quality that this forum believes in.... free speech.
     
  15. May 30, 2011 #115

    Heather

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    We don't have a history here of doing a whole lot of moderation/deletion of people or posts, Brett. It's kind of something set in stone about this forum, which stems from the regular censorship that goes on at another one.

    We'll keep an eye on the thread though and move it out back if it gets out of hand.
     
  16. May 30, 2011 #116

    Sirius

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    Roth wrote an account of an event he claims to have witnessed. If you believe it to be untrue, prove it. Nobody is stopping you from proving him to be a liar. If he is not a liar, however, you have no reason to be insulted. He isn't abusing you verbally, so there is nothing for the administrator of this forum to do.

    If you know these people from CITES, invite them to chime in.
     
  17. May 30, 2011 #117

    Candace

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  18. May 30, 2011 #118
    hmm

    If I'm not mistaken ROth's real name is Xavier something ( can't write his french name its too complicated) he has several accounts here.
    just like me :rollhappy:

    Now Roth gives the impression that he knows everything about everything so do even start arguing with him its a waste of time.

    Roth is excellent in presenting his own presumptions as facts but for people who knows him, well we know that he's just a cheap trick not worth the attention



     
  19. May 30, 2011 #119

    Sirius

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    I don't have the right to close your "Pandora" account Uri, but I am petitioning Heather and the other moderators to close it. If you want to attack somebody, do it like a man and use your real name. I do know that Xavier has two accounts open here, but he is only using one. I don't feel anyone needs two accounts, or more, to post with.

    I never thought I would be saying this, but some of you need to grow up.
     
  20. May 30, 2011 #120

    Hien

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    May be Xavier has two accounts because at one time he really liked paph. sanderianum but now he leans more toward paph. rothschildianum .
     

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