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CITES - conserving or destroying?
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Mark Sullivan
*****istrator of 1%FOC
Poaching/CITES/ in situ orchid conservation
I don' t know anyone that has any influence over CITES. I don't have CITES enforcer friends. The Orchid Conservation Coalition has nothing to do with CITES. The OCC's focus is keeping the orchids in their habitat and saving orchid habitat. Once an orchid is pulled from the ground, rock or tree and taken from its habitat it is pretty much game over.
My reaction to trafficking of wild collected orchids is that it is a travesty. I don't think CITES work any better in the western countries than in Asia or South America or anywhere else. Western countries help provide the market for endangered species to be smuggled over borders in large amounts. If there was no demand there would not be any trafficking in wild orchids.
CITES doesn't interest me much, as it is what it is. It is not going to change anytime soon. Changing of CITES involves politics and many countries. I agree with what many have written in prior posts in regards to CITES. You can talk about it all you want on posts but it is not going to make a bit of difference.
I am more interested in orchid conservation especially in situ.
Poaching of wild orchids is the number two threat to orchid species extinction in the wild. Number one is habitat destruction - logging, farming, road building, damming, water diversion, and climate change.
Poaching and smuggling are going to happen as long as there is economic disparity and people who are starving and living day to day trying to figure out where there next meal is going to come from. As long as there is value to what they pull out of the ground or a tree, there is going to be someone who needs to do it to survive. Producing as many seedling as you can artificially in developed countries is not going to stop the smuggling because the cost will not get low enough to be profitable in developed countries and yet under cut the person struggling to eat in a third world country. The only way you are going to stop someone from poaching is when it is not economical for them and is a waste of their time. You have to lessen the economic disparity and provide more security for the less well off. If endangered species are worth more in their habitat to the people that live near by than in ex situ, the endangered species will stay in their habitat and be protected. Eco Tourism (hired locals as guides), maybe carbon offset and other type of offsets. But is there a big enough market for those things? I doubt.
Artificial seedling orchid production may help if it is done in the third world countries from which the orchids come from, employes locals, nurseries are local, plants exported out and benefit the local economy. Is there a large enough market for species to support on going artificial propagation and nursery grown plants to help sustain local businesses to help people make a livelihood from it?
I don't believe artificial propagation of species in the west is going to have much effect on poaching and smuggling. The underlying problem is local economics and a struggle to survive.
Please elaborate on where I am not being practical and pragmatic in my approach to conservation particularly for Asiatic Paph and S American Pharg,
I don' t know anyone that has any influence over CITES. I don't have CITES enforcer friends. The Orchid Conservation Coalition has nothing to do with CITES. The OCC's focus is keeping the orchids in their habitat and saving orchid habitat. Once an orchid is pulled from the ground, rock or tree and taken from its habitat it is pretty much game over.
My reaction to trafficking of wild collected orchids is that it is a travesty. I don't think CITES work any better in the western countries than in Asia or South America or anywhere else. Western countries help provide the market for endangered species to be smuggled over borders in large amounts. If there was no demand there would not be any trafficking in wild orchids.
CITES doesn't interest me much, as it is what it is. It is not going to change anytime soon. Changing of CITES involves politics and many countries. I agree with what many have written in prior posts in regards to CITES. You can talk about it all you want on posts but it is not going to make a bit of difference.
I am more interested in orchid conservation especially in situ.
Poaching of wild orchids is the number two threat to orchid species extinction in the wild. Number one is habitat destruction - logging, farming, road building, damming, water diversion, and climate change.
Poaching and smuggling are going to happen as long as there is economic disparity and people who are starving and living day to day trying to figure out where there next meal is going to come from. As long as there is value to what they pull out of the ground or a tree, there is going to be someone who needs to do it to survive. Producing as many seedling as you can artificially in developed countries is not going to stop the smuggling because the cost will not get low enough to be profitable in developed countries and yet under cut the person struggling to eat in a third world country. The only way you are going to stop someone from poaching is when it is not economical for them and is a waste of their time. You have to lessen the economic disparity and provide more security for the less well off. If endangered species are worth more in their habitat to the people that live near by than in ex situ, the endangered species will stay in their habitat and be protected. Eco Tourism (hired locals as guides), maybe carbon offset and other type of offsets. But is there a big enough market for those things? I doubt.
Artificial seedling orchid production may help if it is done in the third world countries from which the orchids come from, employes locals, nurseries are local, plants exported out and benefit the local economy. Is there a large enough market for species to support on going artificial propagation and nursery grown plants to help sustain local businesses to help people make a livelihood from it?
I don't believe artificial propagation of species in the west is going to have much effect on poaching and smuggling. The underlying problem is local economics and a struggle to survive.
Please elaborate on where I am not being practical and pragmatic in my approach to conservation particularly for Asiatic Paph and S American Pharg,
quietaustralian
Well-Known Member
Keep up the good work Mark.
I admire everything about the Orchid Conservation Coalition, the concept, the structure and outcomes.
Its great to see that Australia is punching above its weight in regard to donations and well we should with 25 % of globally extinct orchids being Australian*.
Habitat retention and protection isn’t a concept in saving species, its the answer.
Regards, Mick
*Koopowitz H. Orchids and their conservation. Portland: Timber Press; 2001.
I agree mostly with all you said.But,the protection of the habitat,is stil very difficult if not impossible due to the enormous pressure done by big companies etc...that moving money can change the economy of a country.
I can see few solutions,and majority are between dreams and mental masturbation...
Ecotourism not enough,in vitro production "on the place"...difficult and need big money...buy all the possible land...we need someone really rich!:rollhappy:
so maybe the solution are 2:
1)complete banning of all orchids species trade(sounds terrible and very difficult to apply,will stop big part of poaching,but will be useless if not negative on habitat destruction)
2)
In my opinion all things have to be putted together.
For example(also if not possible burocratically,but never say never),CITES have to put money produced from "documents" into invitro reproduction "on the place" etc.
Peoples that need to collect plants to survive have to be educated about the value of what they have and start a kind of commercial cultivation insitu.I remember being in kalimantan with Dayaks:those peoples only collected few plants from the jungle,and only portions of plants and said that they will wait sometime before going again,because for them was a kind of "Bank" and forever income...(some of them,others wanted to strip out everything).
Oblige government to rescue plants from deforested areas and reintroduce to similar area,devide and sell and send all the money to labs and educational institutions that do conservation education and economic production insitu.
If orchids become a bussiness insitu,the same peoples that use to poach plants will became the ones that will protect land from deforesation.To this,all kind of economic revenue can be added like ecotourism,derived product,medicine bio productions reponsible fishing and many others...
Building a real net between orchids producers,botanical gardens and hobbists,opening facilities for invitro production in every "first world" country.Like "I send you seeds and i send you back a flask for only the expenses of row material and shipping...so hobbists material will became available to botanical gardens and producers...Push Producers to send some material for free to botanical Gardens and Push botanical gardens to grow them...
Make campaigns to promote the orchid world and orchids conservation as is done in the animals protection.
Make classes about orchids,and oblige all schools to make grow an orchid plant to all elementary school childs(that is very important).
Peoples have to feel what is "Nature" to defend it(now child know nature only from television...can be seen of the great ammount of allergies child have in new generations).Knowledge is nothing without experience and sensation.If started as jungster,will work.Is important to invest on future generations to save plants and animals.
As happened in many different things in human history,the solution is not forbidding but educating.
Hope there is something interesting in what i've written...:rollhappy:
H
Howzat
Guest
Wow, I think I lost my post.
Here it is again.
To Mark
I said before, your works has to be commended. But I think it only works in western countries. Not in Asia.
I draw a parallel between the CITES idea of banning cross border trafficking, because it tries to force the people (villagers and the second/third man) to leave the orchids alone in the jungle. ie. conserve all those orchids in their natural habitat. Which is also the forefront idea of yours about insitu conservation. But in Asia, this has never succeeded. And it will never either. They are just ordinary people who just want to feed the family on day today basis. The middle men could not care less as long he made a quick buck and even if he was apprehended (very very rarely) and pay a small fine, his activities is still profitable. So it is so hard to police. Putting fence around
the habitatit??? You got to be joking!! Put local policemen to guard it, they take bribes and let people take the plants. Educating them ??? Questionable!!
But in the bigger picture, the situation is more frightening. Take Indonesia for example. The destruction of Kalimantan where only less than 10% of natural habitat left standing is an example. And you are thinking of protecting the natural habitat???. From the local chiefs to the ministers collaborating with companies, the destruction is on mega scale.
Yet Indonesia is a signatory to CITES, which actually should promote conservation?? What has CITES done?? Would they punish Indonesia?? Laughable.
CITES only deals with the few kolopakingii. supardii, gigantifolium, and lowii's that escape this mega destruction only to be met by the border controller. This is easy to get around, with a bit of money changing hands, these little fellows find its way to European nurseries. And only to be raided by CITES enforcers. who could not care less about thse plants post raid. There is no report where these plant 've gone to. And if they escape the raids, the few that did were selfed, mated, produced seedlings , but only to be declared illegal by USA CITES.
Fortunately there are some countries, like Taiwan who closed an eye to the existence of the numerous lab, producing seedlings and there are countries which do not question the legal status of the parents. Australia included. And I think this a practical and pragmatic approach. Maybe more than half of the seedlings died, but because of the big numbers, some will survive to adulthood, and ready to be propagated. 99% of the hobbiest in Australia do not take wild plants, so do not say that seedlings cannot compete with wild collected plants. We only buy seedlings in flasks
Mark there are some people, not many (I am sure that you are not), who have grand vision and ideas which cannot and impossible to achieve.
Here it is again.
To Mark
I said before, your works has to be commended. But I think it only works in western countries. Not in Asia.
I draw a parallel between the CITES idea of banning cross border trafficking, because it tries to force the people (villagers and the second/third man) to leave the orchids alone in the jungle. ie. conserve all those orchids in their natural habitat. Which is also the forefront idea of yours about insitu conservation. But in Asia, this has never succeeded. And it will never either. They are just ordinary people who just want to feed the family on day today basis. The middle men could not care less as long he made a quick buck and even if he was apprehended (very very rarely) and pay a small fine, his activities is still profitable. So it is so hard to police. Putting fence around
the habitatit??? You got to be joking!! Put local policemen to guard it, they take bribes and let people take the plants. Educating them ??? Questionable!!
But in the bigger picture, the situation is more frightening. Take Indonesia for example. The destruction of Kalimantan where only less than 10% of natural habitat left standing is an example. And you are thinking of protecting the natural habitat???. From the local chiefs to the ministers collaborating with companies, the destruction is on mega scale.
Yet Indonesia is a signatory to CITES, which actually should promote conservation?? What has CITES done?? Would they punish Indonesia?? Laughable.
CITES only deals with the few kolopakingii. supardii, gigantifolium, and lowii's that escape this mega destruction only to be met by the border controller. This is easy to get around, with a bit of money changing hands, these little fellows find its way to European nurseries. And only to be raided by CITES enforcers. who could not care less about thse plants post raid. There is no report where these plant 've gone to. And if they escape the raids, the few that did were selfed, mated, produced seedlings , but only to be declared illegal by USA CITES.
Fortunately there are some countries, like Taiwan who closed an eye to the existence of the numerous lab, producing seedlings and there are countries which do not question the legal status of the parents. Australia included. And I think this a practical and pragmatic approach. Maybe more than half of the seedlings died, but because of the big numbers, some will survive to adulthood, and ready to be propagated. 99% of the hobbiest in Australia do not take wild plants, so do not say that seedlings cannot compete with wild collected plants. We only buy seedlings in flasks
Mark there are some people, not many (I am sure that you are not), who have grand vision and ideas which cannot and impossible to achieve.
B
Braem
Guest
OK ... let me get in here just for a minute. Let me give a pragmatic picture of the issue. I have been in the wild, I know CITES, I know the orchid trade, I know human nature (and I don't mind getting flamed).
1) As long as people are on the planet, the habitats will be destroyed ... anyone who thinks that we can stop the forests being cut or burned down is naive. Thus habitat protection is utopia.
2) CITES is useless ... I won't get into the details ... it is all déjà vue.
Ergo: the theorem that orchid cultivation and propagation in vitro is the only way to save the orchids in the long run is correct but unfeasable.
I like (but smiled at) the idea of having orchid classes in school and have the kids grow an orchid ... OK, but then also tulip classes (I mean the wild ones, not the Holland stuff), iris classes, roses classes, etc. etc. etc.
1) As long as people are on the planet, the habitats will be destroyed ... anyone who thinks that we can stop the forests being cut or burned down is naive. Thus habitat protection is utopia.
2) CITES is useless ... I won't get into the details ... it is all déjà vue.
Ergo: the theorem that orchid cultivation and propagation in vitro is the only way to save the orchids in the long run is correct but unfeasable.
I like (but smiled at) the idea of having orchid classes in school and have the kids grow an orchid ... OK, but then also tulip classes (I mean the wild ones, not the Holland stuff), iris classes, roses classes, etc. etc. etc.
I smiled too when was writeing it.But as orchids now is the Popular flower(phalaenopsis) that can be seen in television in movies,on publications,in shops,everywhere...is a good start to rebuild a "nature consciousness" in the new generations,that now are grown up by TV,Playstation and Cars...And will include all flowers and plants...But I think orchids are so similar tu humans,that can be easily used to make understand to young the way the world turn around...is like teaching mathematics using agriculture...
Unfortunately I have to agree that as humans still exists,forest will still fall and burn down...
I decided to tune out of the forum for a few days. My partner and I were quite annoyed. To often we see peopel insinuate that foreigners/locals are sleaze driven, druggies, you name it. There are a lot of us here that are professionals who give a damn though. We do abide by law and order. We know others who do too.
I am very familiar with come CITES officials. It was they who told me that some SE Asian politicians are into the illegal trade, but as its a local thing, the can do nothing. They also said they can do nothing to stop the internal market as they have no power their.
This week in Bangkok, we have the case of an animal smuggler caught trying to bring in big cat cubs in a suite case. He was arrested, with the help of an NGO. Within a short time, the Thai police claimed they came under pressure to release the Middle Eastern smuggler. The people putting the pressure on where said to be (by the police) big politicians, and officials. Today, it was reported that the man was released on bail by the police and handed back his passport. He has now left the country. Says it all. Sorry Roth, but you are wrong if you think there is no political involvment in the smuggling game.
I may have over-reacted with the whoremonger issue, but its annoying to hear that lame story again and again when someone wants to put down people living in or working out of some developing country and to rubbish your opinion or input.
Roth, its not just illegal orchids that are protected. Tour Jatujak and REALLY get to know people. There are loads of illegal animals, corals, fish, plants for sale there. Many in back rooms.. I have seen them. Takes a while to know these people as they wont show you unless they know you are local and dont see you as a threat. Its there. People I know there told me that when a police raids is coming, they get a phone call to move stock or lock up for the day.
It was in the media here some years ago, a stand of with the military when police tried to raid areas of Jatujak. Sorry, but it to was reported. Sure, the police get to fine and collect a bribe from the small folk across the road, and in JJ in general, but theres a line the dont ever cross.
I am sure you will deride this. But having lived here 7 years now, I have seen and read enough to know enough of what goes on.
Sure CITES can shut the door to export, but I bet that will never happen. Sure as heck the powers that be would make life hell for locals that tried to initiate that.
Even if it happened and trade to the West was shut off, it would not stop the Asian market as that is for the most part illegal anyway with illegal border movements.
I am very familiar with come CITES officials. It was they who told me that some SE Asian politicians are into the illegal trade, but as its a local thing, the can do nothing. They also said they can do nothing to stop the internal market as they have no power their.
This week in Bangkok, we have the case of an animal smuggler caught trying to bring in big cat cubs in a suite case. He was arrested, with the help of an NGO. Within a short time, the Thai police claimed they came under pressure to release the Middle Eastern smuggler. The people putting the pressure on where said to be (by the police) big politicians, and officials. Today, it was reported that the man was released on bail by the police and handed back his passport. He has now left the country. Says it all. Sorry Roth, but you are wrong if you think there is no political involvment in the smuggling game.
I may have over-reacted with the whoremonger issue, but its annoying to hear that lame story again and again when someone wants to put down people living in or working out of some developing country and to rubbish your opinion or input.
Roth, its not just illegal orchids that are protected. Tour Jatujak and REALLY get to know people. There are loads of illegal animals, corals, fish, plants for sale there. Many in back rooms.. I have seen them. Takes a while to know these people as they wont show you unless they know you are local and dont see you as a threat. Its there. People I know there told me that when a police raids is coming, they get a phone call to move stock or lock up for the day.
It was in the media here some years ago, a stand of with the military when police tried to raid areas of Jatujak. Sorry, but it to was reported. Sure, the police get to fine and collect a bribe from the small folk across the road, and in JJ in general, but theres a line the dont ever cross.
I am sure you will deride this. But having lived here 7 years now, I have seen and read enough to know enough of what goes on.
Sure CITES can shut the door to export, but I bet that will never happen. Sure as heck the powers that be would make life hell for locals that tried to initiate that.
Even if it happened and trade to the West was shut off, it would not stop the Asian market as that is for the most part illegal anyway with illegal border movements.
Sirius
Plant Nerd
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Listen, and listen good. You obviously have issues with people making reference to the sex trade in Thailand. Frankly, you are blowing **** out of proportion because of your mental hang ups. I am not going to sling facts at you about the sex tourism trade in Thailand, and how many foreigners do visit that country purely for it, because that is not what this thread is about. Let's take a look at the facts in this thread, so we can finally put this bullshit to rest.
You started getting irritated with Roth in post #104 of this thread.
In post #105 he said he knew of several officials who spent time in bars instead of doing their job.
By post #106 you called him "hypocritical" and started claiming, falsely, that he said every foreigner in the country was a "whoremonger."
In post #108 he recounts the story of seeing some representatives of the WWF and Greenpeace being entertained at a bar by some bar girls and the orchid smugglers they were supposed to investigate.
He never said every foreigner in the country was a "whoremonger," in fact, he never used that term, you did. He also is claiming to have witnessed these incidents himself. You can't see past your own hyperinflated sense of outrage to ask him to provide any more details or proof to back up his claim.
Instead of acting like a crybaby, why don't you attack the facts of his story and see if you can make the truth he is presenting unravel?
Sirius
Plant Nerd
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And, because now you have pissed me off, let me clear something else up. Uri has requested that we delete his account from this forum. In the past, I have stood up for Uri, and begged him to stay on this forum even though he acted like a crybaby whenever Dr. Braem joined the forum. Twice he threw a hissy fit and left the forum, and twice we asked him to stay.
Uri was using a second account, username Pandora, to attack Xavier personally. It was not the first time he did it either. There are old threads on this forum, where the Pandora account made personal attacks on Xavier. At the time, we just dealt with it. This time, we happened to look at the email address of the person posting as Pandora. Surprise, surprise, it was Uri. We didn't have to do anything sneaky to figure out who Pandora was, the proof was right there when both accounts had the same email address and IP number. We didn't ban him, though I think he probably deserved it. We simply asked him not to do it anymore, and told him we were merging his two accounts.
He quit the forum instead.
I don't care what the beef is between Uri and Xavier, and I don't care if anyone else feels a beef is developing between them and Xavier. I am telling you right now, that I am not going to sit idly by and let you cry on the forum, or fraudulently attack someone, without saying something. I am trying really hard to keep my stubborn Irish temper under control, but you people aren't making it easy.
Get back to the facts, and keep it clean.
Uri was using a second account, username Pandora, to attack Xavier personally. It was not the first time he did it either. There are old threads on this forum, where the Pandora account made personal attacks on Xavier. At the time, we just dealt with it. This time, we happened to look at the email address of the person posting as Pandora. Surprise, surprise, it was Uri. We didn't have to do anything sneaky to figure out who Pandora was, the proof was right there when both accounts had the same email address and IP number. We didn't ban him, though I think he probably deserved it. We simply asked him not to do it anymore, and told him we were merging his two accounts.
He quit the forum instead.
I don't care what the beef is between Uri and Xavier, and I don't care if anyone else feels a beef is developing between them and Xavier. I am telling you right now, that I am not going to sit idly by and let you cry on the forum, or fraudulently attack someone, without saying something. I am trying really hard to keep my stubborn Irish temper under control, but you people aren't making it easy.
Get back to the facts, and keep it clean.
Sirius
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Stick to the point of the thread. That's a warning. You don't want to keep egging me on.
Excuse me John, I may have a very poor English, so I don't understand why you are soo stressed. But I never read those words in this forum
I love this forum for its excellent input of all the specialist here!
So I please you ALL: calm down! and go back to the Paphs :wink:
baodai
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Before you can talk much about other countries people you need to know about them, about their culture (at diff region within the country, specially Vietnamese), In general here is where the goverment and the people where i live works:
1) Money will buy you mostly everything, including a goverment seat
2) There are park ranger at national park, where you are not allow to collect orchid ... but here is how it works: the local can share some percentages of what he/she make by selling orchid, animal, tree, etc ... these rangers will share some percentage to his boss, then his boss will share some percentage to his boss and so on ... one thing you got to remmenber that is: the boss buy his seat, so he can't get fired, if there is heating from upper boss, he will move to diff location and do the same thing over and over again ....
Here is another example: If the police stop you for not obey the traffic law (speed, over weight, etc ...) You just have to pay him (50% or something like that) in cash then you go
Now: how do you deal with corruption goverment? You don't, you just deal with it
3) Vietnam can accesses Thai Lan, Cambodian and China border. You can move a 18 wheelers in and out at custom border just like free way. You just know who you need to talk to before you move 18 wheelers of orchid .... For smaller scale, you don't need to go by custom check point, you can just cross the trail to another country
4) the bottom line: you can't stop people from collecting wild orchid, as long as they can make profit from it. (if someone have a solution, I'm listening ... don't tell me, everyone in this world will stop buying orchid )
5) I read somewhere and people mention that: propagate in third world country where the orchids live, ... my comment to this is good luck ... to buy orchid median and sowing kit ... it is way more expensive than buy wild plant and you don't have to wait many years for it to flower
You can talk about it as much as you want, ... It is what it is, nothing you can do about stopping people from collecting wild orchid as long as they can sell it and feed their family
Thank you for reading
BD
1) Money will buy you mostly everything, including a goverment seat
2) There are park ranger at national park, where you are not allow to collect orchid ... but here is how it works: the local can share some percentages of what he/she make by selling orchid, animal, tree, etc ... these rangers will share some percentage to his boss, then his boss will share some percentage to his boss and so on ... one thing you got to remmenber that is: the boss buy his seat, so he can't get fired, if there is heating from upper boss, he will move to diff location and do the same thing over and over again ....
Here is another example: If the police stop you for not obey the traffic law (speed, over weight, etc ...) You just have to pay him (50% or something like that) in cash then you go
Now: how do you deal with corruption goverment? You don't, you just deal with it
3) Vietnam can accesses Thai Lan, Cambodian and China border. You can move a 18 wheelers in and out at custom border just like free way. You just know who you need to talk to before you move 18 wheelers of orchid .... For smaller scale, you don't need to go by custom check point, you can just cross the trail to another country
4) the bottom line: you can't stop people from collecting wild orchid, as long as they can make profit from it. (if someone have a solution, I'm listening ... don't tell me, everyone in this world will stop buying orchid
)5) I read somewhere and people mention that: propagate in third world country where the orchids live, ... my comment to this is good luck ... to buy orchid median and sowing kit ... it is way more expensive than buy wild plant and you don't have to wait many years for it to flower
You can talk about it as much as you want, ... It is what it is, nothing you can do about stopping people from collecting wild orchid as long as they can sell it and feed their family
Thank you for reading
BD
Before you can talk much about other countries people you need to know about them, about their culture (at diff region within the country, specially Vietnamese), In general here is where the goverment and the people where i live works:
1) Money will buy you mostly everything, including a goverment seat
2) There are park ranger at national park, where you are not allow to collect orchid ... but here is how it works: the local can share some percentages of what he/she make by selling orchid, animal, tree, etc ... these rangers will share some percentage to his boss, then his boss will share some percentage to his boss and so on ... one thing you got to remmenber that is: the boss buy his seat, so he can't get fired, if there is heating from upper boss, he will move to diff location and do the same thing over and over again ....
Here is another example: If the police stop you for not obey the traffic law (speed, over weight, etc ...) You just have to pay him (50% or something like that) in cash then you go
Now: how do you deal with corruption goverment? You don't, you just deal with it
3) Vietnam can accesses Thai Lan, Cambodian and China border. You can move a 18 wheelers in and out at custom border just like free way. You just know who you need to talk to before you move 18 wheelers of orchid .... For smaller scale, you don't need to go by custom check point, you can just cross the trail to another country
4) the bottom line: you can't stop people from collecting wild orchid, as long as they can make profit from it. (if someone have a solution, I'm listening ... don't tell me, everyone in this world will stop buying orchid
5) I read somewhere and people mention that: propagate in third world country where the orchids live, ... my comment to this is good luck ... to buy orchid median and sowing kit ... it is way more expensive than buy wild plant and you don't have to wait many years for it to flower
You can talk about it as much as you want, ... It is what it is, nothing you can do about stopping people from collecting wild orchid as long as they can sell it and feed their family
Thank you for reading
BD
Thank you Baodai. I 100% agree with you. You are much more eloquent than I on the matter.
B
Braem
Guest
Thank you Baodai for this posting!!Before you can talk much about other countries people you need to know about them, about their culture (at diff region within the country, specially Vietnamese), In general here is where the goverment and the people where i live works:
1) Money will buy you mostly everything, including a goverment seat
2) There are park ranger at national park, where you are not allow to collect orchid ... but here is how it works: the local can share some percentages of what he/she make by selling orchid, animal, tree, etc ... these rangers will share some percentage to his boss, then his boss will share some percentage to his boss and so on ... one thing you got to remmenber that is: the boss buy his seat, so he can't get fired, if there is heating from upper boss, he will move to diff location and do the same thing over and over again ....
Here is another example: If the police stop you for not obey the traffic law (speed, over weight, etc ...) You just have to pay him (50% or something like that) in cash then you go
Now: how do you deal with corruption goverment? You don't, you just deal with it
3) Vietnam can accesses Thai Lan, Cambodian and China border. You can move a 18 wheelers in and out at custom border just like free way. You just know who you need to talk to before you move 18 wheelers of orchid .... For smaller scale, you don't need to go by custom check point, you can just cross the trail to another country
4) the bottom line: you can't stop people from collecting wild orchid, as long as they can make profit from it. (if someone have a solution, I'm listening ... don't tell me, everyone in this world will stop buying orchid
5) I read somewhere and people mention that: propagate in third world country where the orchids live, ... my comment to this is good luck ... to buy orchid median and sowing kit ... it is way more expensive than buy wild plant and you don't have to wait many years for it to flower
You can talk about it as much as you want, ... It is what it is, nothing you can do about stopping people from collecting wild orchid as long as they can sell it and feed their family
Thank you for reading
BD
Rick
Well-Known Member
Ergo
Live today, die tomorrow. The only hope for tomorrow is that it ends soon and doesn't hurt to bad when it does.
Pretty dismal
Maybe we can instill such a sense of futility and depression that there will be a general world boycott:wink:
E
Eric Muehlbauer
Guest
Relax John.....this is the INTERNET. There is no reason in the world for anyone to lose their temper, Irish or otherwise, for something posted on the 'net. This is still the calmest, most peaceful internet forum I have EVER posted on. And its because of us. Someone gets their hairs up about something? So what? They'll calm down if the rest of us are calm. The flames I have seen in the 5 (?) years of this lists existence don't compare to a flicker on most other lists I subscribe too...and you know it would have been snuffed out on that long ago "other" slipper list....if it even still exists.
Sirius
Plant Nerd
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2008
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Eric,
Because I have respect for you, I want to respond, but this is the last time I am going to post in this thread. I really have nothing to add to the CITES debate.
I am not going to go into it, but let me just say that presently I am under a lot of stress in my personal life.
I do not have any friends local to me that are interested in plants. If I were interested in Nascar, hunting or crystal meth, I could find all the friends in the world right in my own back yard. The book, and subsequent movie "Winter's Bone" are about the very county I am living in, and I can tell you that movie is not at all wrong about the poverty and drug use in this area of the country. There are not a lot of people here who have orchid collections, and believe me, I have been searching for them.
My only resource for socialization with other plant owners, is the internet.
I come here to get away from all the stress and drama of the real world. This should be a place where I can relax and read. It's very hard to do that, when people I really like, use a dummy account just for the purpose of starting drama. I can't do that, when people keep emailing the forum administrator, and posting how they had their feelings hurt over something that never happened.
So I snapped. I regret it. I do not, however, regret anything I said. It's all true. I am sorry, again, if anyone's day was ruined by my outburst. I was hoping it would snap everybody out of their funk, and we could return to normal programming.
So please, please, please...if you want to discuss my need for anger management, feel free to send me a private message. Otherwise, can we return to the CITES debate as I have requested? Do me that favor at least.
