CITES - conserving or destroying?

[Mark Sullivan]

Orchid Conservation and success

Success is a relative thing especially when it comes to conservation. I do I agree with many it looks very bleak. I fully expect the rate of species extinction to continue to at its current pace and get faster. We are seeing the greats mass extinction species on the planet since the meteorite hit.

Baodai you are right there is a lot of corruption and people have to feed their families. I know that here are some examples Indonesia:
http://www.orchidconservationcoalition.org/hl/bukitbarisanselatan.html

Workers cultivating coffee illegally in Bukit Barisan Selatan National Park photo by Kathleen Sullivan

Another story: http://www.orchidconservationcoalition.org/hl/gunungleuser.html

Deforestation just outside Gunung Leuser National Park photo by Kathleen Sullivan

This is all happening in supposed national parks. There are going to be casualties. So do we just fold up our seats and go home and complain about it all on forums? about how it is all going to hell in a hand basket? Or do we try and take one small step and do the best that we can? It is possible we will save very little and our effort will be futile but no effort to try and save habitat and we will definitely fail.

There are good organization like Ecominga in Peru. http://www.orchidconservationcoalition.org/hl/ecuadorecominga.html
with trustworthy local guards that believe in what they are doing:

Our guard Luis Recalde with a giant mahogany tree in Candelaria. Photo Juan Pablo Reyes.

Reserve caretaker Fausto Recalde in the high paramo of Cerro Candelaria. Photo Luis Recalde

You are right Howzat, Guido and others CITES has problems and it is not going to solve any problems. It exists and we have to deal with it. I would though waste to much time complaining about it because its not going to change anytime soon. But Howzat there are people in South America and Asia that do care and want to do the right thing.

Valenzino you have good suggestions in your post and you are correct that if we have any chance of success "In my opinion all things have to be putted together." There are going to have to be multiple approaches to conservation for any success. It is going to be slow. It is going to take many people. Many people taking small steps and some big steps.

Ex situ conservation has got to be part of the package but it has it pit falls also. I wrote an article called "The Challenges of Ex situ Orchid Conservation" http://www.orchidconservationcoalition.org/pr/exsitucon.html which outlines many challenges. “Genomic extinction” through hybridization maybe one that people are not familiar with.

Paphiopedilum spicerianum photo by Gordon Kenyon

Paphiopedilum spicerianum 'Monster' HCC photo and grown by Ramon de los Santos

Towards the bottom of this article are some suggestions for ex situ
conservation. One of which this forum as a whole and its members could do.
Just substitute Slippertalk Orchid Forum for orchid society:
"The National Council for the Conservation of Plants and Gardens in the United Kingdom has a Program called the National Plant Collections, which is to be “as complete a representation of a genus or section of a genus as possible.” Some orchid genera are in this collection. A similar program could be set up with orchid societies. Orchid societies could choose to be the keepers of as complete a representation of a genus or section of a genus as possible. The collective members of the society would maintain the genus representation in their various growing situations. They could help guarantee the genetic diversity of species in the genus. Societies could choose to be the keepers of several genera. If different societies overlap by keeping the same genus, this would be beneficial. It could promote interaction between societies. An easy way to begin would be for orchid societies to assess which species their members grow. This would be an indication of the genus the society could become involved in with an ex situ conservation effort. Then orchid society members would become direct participants in orchid conservation. The effort would give orchid societies another dimension of interest in keeping and attracting new members."

Thanks for reading and having an interest in orchid conservation.

Thanks Mick for your kind words and support. It is appreciated.

 

[Roth]

Well, Baodai summed up very well how it works. On the other side, there are a few points that need to be explained:

- animal trade has indeed nearly all the time officials involved. Because an animal is easy to identify ( take a tiger, a turtle...) so a complete network needs to be arranged. Plants, most enforcement people have no idea if they are orchids or not, and if they know it, anyway, they do not know which species, the value... So there is no 'big boss' as a result, as plant smuggling is the poor parent of animal smuggling, and does not generate enough money. Only smuggled cycad are manged by complete networks, however, but they are far more expensive than any orchids for some species.

- Explanation for the UAE... Well I have some 'educated guesses. There are two reasons. UAE tourists makes up for a lot of cash flow in Bangkok ( they have even complete streets where they go, the JW Marriott where I usually stay can have up to three quarters of the rooms booked by UAE people, spending a lot of cash in Siam Paragon and elsewhere, etc...). It is not the main reason however I think.

Let's say too that they sponsor a lot of things inside the CITES, and they have some traditions too, that they can freely enjoy more or less as a result, related to raptors and Chlamydotis, the 'houbara' bird. Been there, seen that, from Almaty to UAE, with some CITES officials, and some WWF raptors experts people, who were so impressed that they immediately reported that capturing raptors was not destructive to the environment. Some of those expert, as well working in universities, got their full travels and further studies for some years paid by some very rich people. I have no right to comment further, as it was a professional investigation.

- For the WWF, there are some very good people, and there is as well the worst of the worst. There is a miniature monkey in Indonesia, discovered about a year ago by collectors. I don't know if they described it already. It is about 10 cm tall all included, and I have seen one live specimen myself in Tretes at a collector's farm, though it is not from Java. One of the WWF Indonesia ( a woman) sold location information to several animal traders, and quite a few have been smuggled, including to the USA. When I was back in France, we found a lot of scientists, sometimes from very famous institutions, 'selling' informations about plant or animal locations, to get money from people who have money... smugglers... to sponsor their studies.

- Regarding protecting the environment, the plants, the animals... Well, there is a problem, and Baodai says it clearly of culture ( or lack of in some cases).

When you see that in some countries, all people, including officials, eat dogs, you realize the problem. The dogs are not killed like a duck or pig. They have to be beaten and kept alive as long as possible, breaking all the bones usually with a bicycle chain, because it is unlikely to kill them too fast, they are tortured. I have seen and heard puppies of 2 months being 'treated' for hours, with the screams completely preventing me from sleeping. The consumers, including scientists, etc... want the dogs to be treated that way, because if they die in pain, the meat is better. You can ask Baodai, or koreans even, or chinese for that.

I know some places, not in Vietnam, but in a country next to it, where you can eat in restaurants aborted fetuses. I think again baodai has heard about that too, and it is not a 'rumor'. They say that anyway they are dead, and it is very good to eat for couples that cannot have childs.

How the F**c you want such people to care about some freaking very rare frogs, or paphiopedilum helenae ? It is a completely different world, period.

I guess people will say that it's a cultural matter. However, I firmly believe that archaism has to be changed, and is in no way a 'cultural matter'. When people are more 'evolved' (no racism or whatsoever intended, don't worry), they can start to understand the plants and animals, etc...

Otherwise, if this is culture, raping young boys, like the Greeks did 2000 years ago to teach them, should be allowed, and killing the neighbor to take his wife too.

( just had a look at the neighbor's wife, finally it's not a good example AT ALL )

There is another concept, the one of the 'kind savage'. We think that collectors are poor, we want to help them. They are in small houses, they do not have the DVD player, they need us... WRONG.

In fact, most of the collectors in Vietnam, China, Thailand, are locally very rich. They don't need us, and they make easy money.

'If we can bring them 500US a month to make conservation, education, survey, they will stop, sent their children to the university, blabla...' NO, they DON'T CARE. I have seen it with the rothschildianum collectors in Sabah. They get money from the governement to stop, help the authorities, more money from NGO to survey, and they get... most of their money from selling wildlife, like before. Because the latter is the best, highest income.

The collector of paph emersonii, until quite recently when the resource went extinct ( now he collects frogs...), was doing about 50.000.000 VND a months. That's 2500USD guys, just to go to the forest, and dig up plants.

In more remote areas, poorer, where people earn 200-300.000VND a month maximum, that's 15USD, someone dealing in wild plants will earn some millions per months, he is the king of the area. In wild animals, some dozen millions.

There is a culture problem, or lack thereof as I say, and a lot of economic problems. I have no idea about South America, apparently it works better in term of preservation, at least in some areas. But in most Asian countries, I don't think this kind of scheme can be successful.

BTW, the spicerianum 'Monster' at best is a polyploid, or could be a Bruno progeny... The teeth on the petals are typical of non-diploid plants. Here Guido could tell us if he thinks it is a spicerianum still, when there are artificial genetic mutations, or something else...

 

[Braem]

Well, Baodai summed up very well how it works. On the other side, there are a few points that need to be explained:

- animal trade has indeed nearly all the time officials involved. Because an animal is easy to identify ( take a tiger, a turtle...) so a complete network needs to be arranged. Plants, most enforcement people have no idea if they are orchids or not, and if they know it, anyway, they do not know which species, the value... So there is no 'big boss' as a result, as plant smuggling is the poor parent of animal smuggling, and does not generate enough money. Only smuggled cycad are manged by complete networks, however, but they are far more expensive than any orchids for some species.

- Explanation for the UAE... Well I have some 'educated guesses. There are two reasons. UAE tourists makes up for a lot of cash flow in Bangkok ( they have even complete streets where they go, the JW Marriott where I usually stay can have up to three quarters of the rooms booked by UAE people, spending a lot of cash in Siam Paragon and elsewhere, etc...). It is not the main reason however I think.

Let's say too that they sponsor a lot of things inside the CITES, and they have some traditions too, that they can freely enjoy more or less as a result, related to raptors and Chlamydotis, the 'houbara' bird. Been there, seen that, from Almaty to UAE, with some CITES officials, and some WWF raptors experts people, who were so impressed that they immediately reported that capturing raptors was not destructive to the environment. Some of those expert, as well working in universities, got their full travels and further studies for some years paid by some very rich people. I have no right to comment further, as it was a professional investigation.

- For the WWF, there are some very good people, and there is as well the worst of the worst. There is a miniature monkey in Indonesia, discovered about a year ago by collectors. I don't know if they described it already. It is about 10 cm tall all included, and I have seen one live specimen myself in Tretes at a collector's farm, though it is not from Java. One of the WWF Indonesia ( a woman) sold location information to several animal traders, and quite a few have been smuggled, including to the USA. When I was back in France, we found a lot of scientists, sometimes from very famous institutions, 'selling' informations about plant or animal locations, to get money from people who have money... smugglers... to sponsor their studies.

- Regarding protecting the environment, the plants, the animals... Well, there is a problem, and Baodai says it clearly of culture ( or lack of in some cases).

When you see that in some countries, all people, including officials, eat dogs, you realize the problem. The dogs are not killed like a duck or pig. They have to be beaten and kept alive as long as possible, breaking all the bones usually with a bicycle chain, because it is unlikely to kill them too fast, they are tortured. I have seen and heard puppies of 2 months being 'treated' for hours, with the screams completely preventing me from sleeping. The consumers, including scientists, etc... want the dogs to be treated that way, because if they die in pain, the meat is better. You can ask Baodai, or koreans even, or chinese for that.

I know some places, not in Vietnam, but in a country next to it, where you can eat in restaurants aborted fetuses. I think again baodai has heard about that too, and it is not a 'rumor'. They say that anyway they are dead, and it is very good to eat for couples that cannot have childs.

How the F**c you want such people to care about some freaking very rare frogs, or paphiopedilum helenae ? It is a completely different world, period.

I guess people will say that it's a cultural matter. However, I firmly believe that archaism has to be changed, and is in no way a 'cultural matter'. When people are more 'evolved' (no racism or whatsoever intended, don't worry), they can start to understand the plants and animals, etc...

Otherwise, if this is culture, raping young boys, like the Greeks did 2000 years ago to teach them, should be allowed, and killing the neighbor to take his wife too.

( just had a look at the neighbor's wife, finally it's not a good example AT ALL )

There is another concept, the one of the 'kind savage'. We think that collectors are poor, we want to help them. They are in small houses, they do not have the DVD player, they need us... WRONG.

In fact, most of the collectors in Vietnam, China, Thailand, are locally very rich. They don't need us, and they make easy money.

'If we can bring them 500US a month to make conservation, education, survey, they will stop, sent their children to the university, blabla...' NO, they DON'T CARE. I have seen it with the rothschildianum collectors in Sabah. They get money from the governement to stop, help the authorities, more money from NGO to survey, and they get... most of their money from selling wildlife, like before. Because the latter is the best, highest income.

The collector of paph emersonii, until quite recently when the resource went extinct ( now he collects frogs...), was doing about 50.000.000 VND a months. That's 2500USD guys, just to go to the forest, and dig up plants.

In more remote areas, poorer, where people earn 200-300.000VND a month maximum, that's 15USD, someone dealing in wild plants will earn some millions per months, he is the king of the area. In wild animals, some dozen millions.

There is a culture problem, or lack thereof as I say, and a lot of economic problems. I have no idea about South America, apparently it works better in term of preservation, at least in some areas. But in most Asian countries, I don't think this kind of scheme can be successful.

BTW, the spicerianum 'Monster' at best is a polyploid, or could be a Bruno progeny... The teeth on the petals are typical of non-diploid plants. Here Guido could tell us if he thinks it is a spicerianum still, when there are artificial genetic mutations, or something else...

There are some statements in your posting that could be very much misunderstood, especially when quoted out of context. I strongly advise that you be somewhat more careful.

About the "spicerianum 'Monster' ... I have discussed that plant with several people and we think the plant is a hybrid (of whatever provenance) .... But at the end, I have too little information to make a final (scientifically valid) judgment.

 

[Dokmai Garden]

In spite of CITES and national parks, we fear the Thai orchids are highly endangered. In fact, people who want to follow the law ask me where they can find information about who is certified and who is not, but CITES is not interested in helping. To us, a network of orchid arks would create safety:www.dokmaigarden.co.th/orchidark.php

Eric Danell

 

[Braem]

In spite of CITES and national parks, we fear the Thai orchids are highly endangered. In fact, people who want to follow the law ask me where they can find information about who is certified and who is not, but CITES is not interested in helping. To us, a network of orchid arks would create safety:www.dokmaigarden.co.th/orchidark.php

Eric Danell

It takes time ... but eventually you will ALL understand that CITES is nonsense and CITES authorities in many countries are nothing but crooks.
anout 15 years ago I was talking to the Minister in charge of CITES in Tanzania, when I asked him about CITES, he said ... "what is that?" ... That same night in the Hotel I overheard a conversation ... one of the people was an the assistant of the minister. He was talking to two men who wanted an enormous amount of Hippo teeth ... the minister's assistant said" No problem" ....

 

[Mark Sullivan]

Hybrids and show "species"

Whether Phap spicerianum 'Monster' is a hybrid or not, it helps illustrate two problems with ex situ conservation:

1. It is a hybrid masking as a species all subsequent prodigies will also be hybrids. People try an improve the species by adding pollinating with another species thus propelling species extinction in ex situ. It only takes once and you can never go back. Many people do not keep good records. Orchids get moved around. Tags get lost. Someone declares something a species puts a new tag in. Someone unknowingly creates more "species" mot knowing they are using a hybrid. Over many years you soon have all hybrids in ex situ and extinction of a species in ex situ and in situ.

2. The push for bigger, rounder and flatter flowers of species eventually leads to species flowers which there original pollinator would not recognize. Line breeding can lead to all sort of problems. And both lead to less genetic diversity as the plain Jane flowers get tossed from collections for the new improved species.

Both 1 and 2 will lead to the extinction of a species in ex situ with no chance of reintroduction. Reintroduction is a pipe dream if habitat continues to destroyed at the rate it is.

 

[Mark Sullivan]

Eric Danell,

I think the Dokmai Garden is a very good idea. Feel free to contact me if you think the Orchid Conservation Coalition could help you.

 

[gonewild]

There are good organization like Ecominga in Peru. http://www.orchidconservationcoalition.org/hl/ecuadorecominga.html
with trustworthy local guards that believe in what they are doing:

Is this in Peru or Ecuador?

 

[Braem]

Whether Phap spicerianum 'Monster' is a hybrid or not, it helps illustrate two problems with ex situ conservation:

1. It is a hybrid masking as a species all subsequent prodigies will also be hybrids. People try an improve the species by adding pollinating with another species thus propelling species extinction in ex situ. It only takes once and you can never go back. Many people do not keep good records. Orchids get moved around. Tags get lost. Someone declares something a species puts a new tag in. Someone unknowingly creates more "species" mot knowing they are using a hybrid. Over many years you soon have all hybrids in ex situ and extinction of a species in ex situ and in situ.

2. The push for bigger, rounder and flatter flowers of species eventually leads to species flowers which there original pollinator would not recognize. Line breeding can lead to all sort of problems. And both lead to less genetic diversity as the plain Jane flowers get tossed from collections for the new improved species.

Both 1 and 2 will lead to the extinction of a species in ex situ with no chance of reintroduction. Reintroduction is a pipe dream if habitat continues to destroyed at the rate it is.

To some extend you are right ... people cross just about every trash they have in their greenhouse as soon as it flowers ...

BUT that does not change anything to the fact that CITES is nonsense as long as you don't protect the habitats, and you can't protect the habitats.

 

[Mark Sullivan]

Correction and Cites

Lance, Sorry my mistake- Ecominga Foundation is in Ecuador. Thanks for catching that.

Guido - I agree "CITES is nonsense as long as you don't protect the habitats, and you can't protect the habitats." and you may be right about habitat protection in the long run. It certainly doesn't look good. There will be lots of casualties.

 

[Howzat]

This is the mistake with CITES. From Mark Sullvan's posts, it sounds like that CITES USA has never had any submission from his organisation or perhaps none from the orchids world, organisations. (Orchid conservationcoalition and other orchids conservation organisation, also AOS and others). If CITES is convened again with representatives from CITES member countries and most of them have not got any submissions from their own orchids organisations, how the hell can CITES convention produce anything that is relevant to Conservation??( in practical and pragmatic way). The more I learn about CITES and its activities, the more resentful I am towards CITES. Just one thing, after the publication of E.Hansen's book, has CITES produced a list of plants that were seized and where they were located and looked after????. If they cannot look after the seized plants, in fact killing them, then dismantle CITES. Let's start all over again and concentrate with regional conservation. Like Mark's org or Dokmai Garden.

 

[Roth]

It takes time ... but eventually you will ALL understand that CITES is nonsense and CITES authorities in many countries are nothing but crooks.
anout 15 years ago I was talking to the Minister in charge of CITES in Tanzania, when I asked him about CITES, he said ... "what is that?" ... That same night in the Hotel I overheard a conversation ... one of the people was an the assistant of the minister. He was talking to two men who wanted an enormous amount of Hippo teeth ... the minister's assistant said" No problem" ....

Can only support this kind of statements. In Madagascar, everyone knows who arranged a lot of CITES and strange exports... CITES officers.

Speaking of rhino horns and 'culture'/tradition, I have heard countless people, including CITES officials in Asia saying that when a relative gets a stroke they use Ang Kung Nihung Wan, a Chinese medecine made with rhino horn ( more efficient with Sumatra rhino according to them). I have even seen educated people using it in Asia. Funny too, in the receipt there is as well mercury,arsenic and antimony. Nevertheless, many people in Asia (most?) believe that rhino horn for strokes is a real remedy, more efficient than any chemical.

If you have a look at the CITES trade database, that's some hundreds TONS of wild collected dendrobium that are traded for medecine ( explicitely 'W' for wild) between Burma, Vietnam, Laos, China, Korea. They say it is nobile, but in fact I have seen a Vietnamese shipment ( with CITES at that time), it included falconeri, strongylanthum, bellatulum, etc.. From Burma, it is pretty much anything with bulbs. What few people know, the old bulbs have no value, so they collect the whole clumps, but for the medecine ONLY this season's bulbs are sent. Remaining is thrown away. 1kg of nobile in the CITES trade database for traditional medicine purpose makes for about 7-10 kg of wild collected plants. I have photos somewhere of half a ton of new bulbs of dendrobium aff. moniliforme. Cannot imagine the quantity of plants collected to prepare that shipment.

 

[Braem]

This is the mistake with CITES. From Mark Sullvan's posts, it sounds like that CITES USA has never had any submission from his organisation or perhaps none from the orchids world, organisations. (Orchid conservationcoalition and other orchids conservation organisation, also AOS and others). If CITES is convened again with representatives from CITES member countries and most of them have not got any submissions from their own orchids organisations, how the hell can CITES convention produce anything that is relevant to Conservation??( in practical and pragmatic way). The more I learn about CITES and its activities, the more resentful I am towards CITES. Just one thing, after the publication of E.Hansen's book, has CITES produced a list of plants that were seized and where they were located and looked after????. If they cannot look after the seized plants, in fact killing them, then dismantle CITES. Let's start all over again and concentrate with regional conservation. Like Mark's org or Dokmai Garden.

Some of plants (I will not say which as it will make lots of people weep bitterly) that were seized at the Popow raid perished in the Botanic Garden (Palmengarten) in Frankurt/Main and others disappeared to Kew (Cribb) and Leiden (de Vogel). The Botanical Gardens in Hannover refused to harbour plants because they did not want any part of the illegal confiscation.

Some of the plants turned up on the Market. The President of the DOG at that time (Gerd Röllke) got best of show (at Marburg) with chinese Paphs that came from Popow a few months after the Popow raid. These plants were awarded in the presence of CITES authorities that were a part of the Popow raid. When I openly complained about this, I was told "None of your business".

 

[s1214215]

Roth.. I am not sure where these UAE streets are you talk of.. Never seen such a thing in all my years here. Also UAE residents are a small amount of tourists here. It was reported on the big cats case that big politicians were involved (Thai and English papers), but thats dropped off the radar now after a week.

Friends in a few SE Asian countries have told me you can waltz into the local CITES and get a cert for a phal lobbi for example with a complex hybrid seedling. They say most offices regard CITES as a joke, but follow things to keep the job.

Dr. Braem I am not surprised by your post on the Botanic gardens/raid

Brett

 

[Marc]

Some of plants (I will not say which as it will make lots of people weep bitterly) that were seized at the Popow raid perished in the Botanic Garden (Palmengarten) in Frankurt/Main and others disappeared to Kew (Cribb) and Leiden (de Vogel). The Botanical Gardens in Hannover refused to harbour plants because they did not want any part of the illegal confiscation.

Some of the plants turned up on the Market. The President of the DOG at that time (Gerd Röllke) got best of show (at Marburg) with chinese Paphs that came from Popow a few months after the Popow raid. These plants were awarded in the presence of CITES authorities that were a part of the Popow raid. When I openly complained about this, I was told "None of your business".

Guido,

You refer to "de Vogel", I asume that you mean Ed de Vogel who is connected to the Hortus Leiden. Any idea if plants that were captured in this raid might still be alive in the greenhouses of Leiden?

 

[Roth]

Some of plants (I will not say which as it will make lots of people weep bitterly) that were seized at the Popow raid perished in the Botanic Garden (Palmengarten) in Frankurt/Main and others disappeared to Kew (Cribb) and Leiden (de Vogel). The Botanical Gardens in Hannover refused to harbour plants because they did not want any part of the illegal confiscation.

Some of the plants turned up on the Market. The President of the DOG at that time (Gerd Röllke) got best of show (at Marburg) with chinese Paphs that came from Popow a few months after the Popow raid. These plants were awarded in the presence of CITES authorities that were a part of the Popow raid. When I openly complained about this, I was told "None of your business".

I would say that they all died, for sure. Leiden did not have them anymore in 1999 when I visited. They told me that they were poorly grown when they arrived. The only problem, whether people like it or not, Popow was one of the best growers of paphs in Europe... so it is sure the plants were in excellent condition.

In England some sanderianum appeared after the Azadehdel story here and there, but no way to know their proven source.

What I know, as I had a big official fight about that, one of the people involved in the experts went to expertise a large batch of wild collected plants in France. He found all the plants to be 'hybrids' (in fact philippinense, supardii, roths, sands...). When he was shown letters that he was one of the sellers, he shut up,rewrote his report for the defense half-half, stating that they were species, but he did not know if they were from the wild or artificially propagated, as he was not a grower. :rollhappy:

Roth.. I am not sure where these UAE streets are you talk of.. Never seen such a thing in all my years here. Also UAE residents are a small amount of tourists here. It was reported on the big cats case that big politicians were involved (Thai and English papers), but thats dropped off the radar now after a week.

About three years ago I had a discussion with the JW Marriott manager in Bangkok, at a time there were many UAE tourists inside his hotel, he told me at that season, they would go to most of the 5* hotels in Bangkok and spend like crazy.

Here they say it is over 95.000 and even the Thai minister wanted to make a visa exemption for them, don't know how it works now:

http://www.siasat.com/english/news/thailand-bid-boost-tourist-arrivals-uae

One UAE tourist is equal to a dozen EU/US tourists if not more in term of cash spent per day.

Friends in a few SE Asian countries have told me you can waltz into the local CITES and get a cert for a phal lobbi for example with a complex hybrid seedling. They say most offices regard CITES as a joke, but follow things to keep the job.

Smugglers do the opposite in fact, get a CITES for phal hybrids and export species. But that's true that in some Asian countries, they know so little about orchids that you have to write for them what to put on the CITES and the equally important phyto...

About Popow, Azadehdel plants, they all died, period. I know that from one of the former directors of the Leiden Botanical Garden directly. They claimed that the plants were very poorly grown, so they could not survive anyway. In fact, there are some pictures of plants grown by Popow here and there, and they were in excellent condition. Popow was an excellent grower, so it was just the botanical gardens that screwed up the culture.

I cannot comment too much, as the story has been classified now, but one of the English people involved had to come to France to defend a grower. He went to see the seized plants, a massive batch. Angrily he told the customs these were hybrids. Then he has been presented with TELEX, and letters that himself and two of his close friends wrote, where to pick up the plants, who to pay. As a bonus, I appeared. He left the job quickly... but he was clearly involved in smuggling.

 

[Howzat]

There are more and more postings here that reinforce my belief that CITES
1. has been created on false ideas. 2. Delegates from countries all over the world to CITES convention are just a bunch of people who do not get consultation from respective plants organisation. Ex. If they have the balls to put all Paphs species into Appendix 1, they do not know why they do it as they did not have a good enough data (how would they have it without consultation with respective paphs organisation?? What would delegate from Africa or middle east know anything about Paphs???), What are the consequences, how to police them, how to check their enforcer agents credibility. I think they did it because of pressure from extreme greenies.
Raeding G. Braem above made me sad, and if that can be verified we should all take actions against Cribb, de Vogel and Gerd Rohl for complicity. But the only sensible action now is to dismantle CITES first and start a new one. Lay down the fact and figures before we plan a policy, then get (for god's sake consultation from interested and knowledgeable people). Not Cribb or de Vogel as their names have already been tainted, according to E. Hansen and Braem. How on earth can they still live peacefully knowing they were instrumental in that infamous raids supported by soldiers with automatic rifles , then let all the plants to die. They did not even have any account on the name and numbers of confiscated plants and where they went or die (above Roth's). And if some of the still alive plants turned up on the market as suggested by G.Braem, did CITES enforcers make any money??? This is nothing short to say that CITES people are daylight robbers. The only refreshing thing from G. Braem's post above is that there was one botanical garden (Hanover) who did not want to participate in that infamous raid. So I renew my call that CITES should be disbanded. Start all over again with proper consultations.

 

[Hien]

And if some of the still alive plants turned up on the market as suggested by G.Braem, did CITES enforcers make any money??? This is nothing short to say that CITES people are daylight robbers..

you have great insight.
This is an ancient idiom that vietnameses love to sing:
"cuop dem la cuop, cuop ngay la quan"
here is the translation:
"the bandit who works at night is just a bandit, the bandit who comes in day light is your king's oficer'

 

[Howzat]

you have great insight.
This is an ancient idiom that vietnameses love to sing:
"cuop dem la cuop, cuop ngay la quan"
here is the translation:
"the bandit who works at night is just a bandit, the bandit who comes in day light is your king's oficer'

How appropriate!!
Perhaps Cribb and de Vogel can wear this mantle until they die.
However I would retract this if they can show the world that all the plants confiscated are in save hands.

 

[Howzat]

you have great insight.
This is an ancient idiom that vietnameses love to sing:
"cuop dem la cuop, cuop ngay la quan"
here is the translation:
"the bandit who works at night is just a bandit, the bandit who comes in day light is your king's oficer'

I would say that they all died, for sure. Leiden did not have them anymore in 1999 when I visited. They told me that they were poorly grown when they arrived. The only problem, whether people like it or not, Popow was one of the best growers of paphs in Europe... so it is sure the plants were in excellent condition.
About Popow, Azadehdel plants, they all died, period. I know that from one of the former directors of the Leiden Botanical Garden directly. They claimed that the plants were very poorly grown, so they could not survive anyway. In fact, there are some pictures of plants grown by Popow here and there, and they were in excellent condition. Popow was an excellent grower, so it was just the botanical gardens that screwed up the culture.
I cannot comment too much, as the story has been classified now, but one of the English people involved had to come to France to defend a grower. He went to see the seized plants, a massive batch. Angrily he told the customs these were hybrids.

This is a good insight provided by ROTH (Xavier) as well as all the posts from Guido Braem. CITES confiscated then killed all the plants. All in the name of "conservation". To be fair to Cribb and de Vogel, I like to see both of them send in their posts here with justification of their actions.
Xavier, why are the stories now classified??