CITES - conserving or destroying?

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Roth

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This is a good insight provided by ROTH (Xavier) as well as all the posts from Guido Braem. CITES confiscated then killed all the plants. All in the name of "conservation". To be fair to Cribb and de Vogel, I like to see both of them send in their posts here with justification of their actions.
Xavier, why are the stories now classified??
I do not know much about de Vogel. I know that a few years ago, some staff at the Leiden Botanical Gardens used the collect permit and CITES for research to supply the trade in rare PNG species, and went busted.

For classified, that's easy.

I was an officer in many of those cases, when the people choose not to go to the court - that's about 3/4 of them in wildlife cases for EU, if not more - they are offered to pay a fine by the law, and the case is closed. Very rarely I have seen a case going to the court (even the final part of Popow case, they made a settlement with the court, Popow could not prove he was right, the court knew that they could not prove they were right, the possible evidences/plants were all dead, so no expert could see them, it started to smell shitty, so they decided to close the case against a fine).

There is one case still pending in Germany against another orchid grower, that promise to be interesting. The orchidist wants... his plants back, but they died in custody. Government offered him money, but he refused, stating that then he wants the government to replace the PLANTS. They know that legally they cannot get those plants, so that was a deep ****. Have not heard about that for about 2 years, but promised to be interesting.

On the other side, for the public, the case never happened if there is an agreement between the parties, that's the law, and it is forbidden to comment or give the name of the people involved. In some other countries, even if the case went to the court, after some years, 5-10-20 depending on the case, the circumstances, etc... it is forbidden to mention, and the records of convicted people are blanked.

Now, from what I learned hard core as an official, many societies that are involved in 'conservation or protection' are attracted like flies by a ****. They hunt the money, and make a good business. I know the salaries of some of Greenpeace and WWF workers, well... it is not benevolent, to say the least. Whenever the customs in France would seize something, WWF France would appear and try to get money at the court for the 'immense damage done to wildlife'. We turned them down each time because:

- First WWF France NEVER did anything to protect species.
- Second, between crazy travels, outrageous expenses and high salaries ( we are talking about salaries in the 100.000 euros/year and way more, jobs granted through friendship, with salaries roughly 10x the normal salary according to the experience and diplomas, and I know VERY well what I am talking about.), there is not much left for any project, believe me. I know that first hand.
- Third we tried some join operation with WWF France experts, they were so close to some the smugglers that they would warn them before the raids... WWF had politic support too, so they have been granted access to the Customs database and facilities, which was the worst mistake ever done.
 
H

Howzat

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Now, from what I learned hard core as an official, many societies that are involved in 'conservation or protection' are attracted like flies by a ****. They hunt the money, and make a good business. I know the salaries of some of Greenpeace and WWF workers, well... it is not benevolent, to say the least. Whenever the customs in France would seize something, WWF France would appear and try to get money at the court for the 'immense damage done to wildlife'. We turned them down each time because:

- First WWF France NEVER did anything to protect species.
- Second, between crazy travels, outrageous expenses and high salaries ( we are talking about salaries in the 100.000 euros/year and way more, jobs granted through friendship, with salaries roughly 10x the normal salary according to the experience and diplomas, and I know VERY well what I am talking about.), there is not much left for any project, believe me. I know that first hand.
- Third we tried some join operation with WWF France experts, they were so close to some the smugglers that they would warn them before the raids... WWF had politic support too, so they have been granted access to the Customs database and facilities, which was the worst mistake ever done.
Thanks Xavier. It sounds like there are many many more than a handful of extreme greenies who are not just extreme in ideas but also like to make dirty money as well.
 
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Braem

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Guido,

You refer to "de Vogel", I asume that you mean Ed de Vogel who is connected to the Hortus Leiden. Any idea if plants that were captured in this raid might still be alive in the greenhouses of Leiden?
Yes I refer to Ed de Vogel ... a croonie of Cribb. As far as plants still alive ... I doubt it ...
And Cribb and de Vogel will never comment on this. Cribb is as arrogant as ever. I did not hear anything about de Vogel since the raid ... so that is a long time ago.
 

Mark Sullivan

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CITES, ex situ and in situ conservation

Weird, there was a post by Swamprad /Mark asking about what could be done and interest in the thread. Can post be rescinded or disappear?
Anyway what can be done.

1. Talking about conservation is good. Talk and educate fellow orchid growers.

2. Ex situ conservation will ultimately fail if unorganized for reason I have outlined in past posts. For it to have any chance of success there must be an organized ex situ orchid conservation effort involving orchid hobbyist, commercial growers, and botanical gardens. Good record keeping and cross pollination effort to keep species genetic diversity up and hybridization out.

Orchid Societies could do this:
"The National Council for the Conservation of Plants and Gardens in the United Kingdom has a Program called the National Plant Collections, which is to be “as complete a representation of a genus or section of a genus as possible.” Some orchid genera are in this collection. A similar program could be set up with orchid societies. Orchid societies could choose to be the keepers of as complete a representation of a genus or section of a genus as possible. The collective members of the society would maintain the genus representation in their various growing situations. They could help guarantee the genetic diversity of species in the genus. Societies could choose to be the keepers of several genera. If different societies overlap by keeping the same genus, this would be beneficial. It could promote interaction between societies. An easy way to begin would be for orchid societies to assess which species their members grow. This would be an indication of the genus the society could become involved in with an ex situ conservation effort. Then orchid society members would become direct participants in orchid conservation. The effort would give orchid societies another dimension of interest in keeping and attracting new members."

Slippertalk Orchid Forum members could also do this by having a virtual sliiper orchid collection made up of all it's member (or those that want to participate) to safeguard slipper species orchids. A database could be set up like the Living Orchid Collection http://www.livingorchidcollection.org

2. In situ orchid conservation can be looking around locally trying to volunteer or save orchid habitat locally. Get your orchid society involved. Get your orchid society to join the Orchid Conservation Coalition and 1% for Orchid Conservation. An orchid society agrees to donate 1% or more of net revenue each year towards the in situ orchid conservation organization or project of its choice. Orchid conservation should be as integral to an orchid societies activities as show tables and judging. http://www.orchidconservationcoalition.org/program.html

3. As far as CITES you can try and change it, but this maybe a bigger effort
than setup an ex situ conservation program or definitely harder than joining 1% for Orchid Conservation. CITES is a trade agreement, not a conservation agreement. You have to remember that. The CITES website is http://www.cites.org/

CITES Contact information to write letters or e-mails:

CITES Secretariat
International Environment House
11 Chemin des Anémones
CH-1219 Châtelaine, Geneva
Switzerland
Tel: +41-(0)22-917-81-39/40
Fax: +41-(0)22-797-34-17
Email: info@cites.org
 
H

Howzat

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CITES is a trade agreement, not a conservation agreement. You have to remember that.

Mark,
Yes it is true CITES is a trade agreement, but a trade agreement that is designed to protect endangered plant and animal. So its main goal is the preservation of the plant and animal. Which has been and is will still be, abused by its officials.
 

Mark Sullivan

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Cites and Conservation

Guido is right when he says (and I am paraphrasing here) CITES is nothing or useless if you don't have habitat protection. Habitat protection is key to conservation and CITES has nothing to do with habitat protection. I think the people at CITES are very well aware of the limitations of CITES to affect conservation. It is hard to say that something is a conservation initiative when all it can do is be implemented when a endangered species crosses a border already removed from habitat or the habitat is already destroyed. What kind of protection is that for endangered plants and animals? Not much.

You are very correct about the unevenness of which CITES is administered by different countries. Bribes and corruption are also not surprising as in many countries this is the norm for all aspects of life. I don't know if you can blame CITES in Switzerland for governments and their officials that are suppose to implement CITES. It is an international law (treaty) that is interpreted and enforced by each government a party to it not by the central organization. Do you think any government would give CITES.org jurisdiction and control within their borders or their resources?

And yes there are problems with the actual treaty in regards to plants and orchids, but people in past post on this thread have covered those aspects very well.
 
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Mark Sullivan

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CITES and Conservation

Howzat,

We really don't have any disagreement. The difference between us is I don't expect much out of CITES or government official in countries where bribes are common. You seem to expect more from it then it can deliver. The fact that CITES has nothing to do with habitat protection, it is hard to get me riled up about it. CITES is what it is.
Would I change CITES if I could? Yes. But I can't. So I move on and try and protect habitat and orchids in situ and ex situ the best I can.
 

emydura

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I refer to a group of greenies who have pie in the sky ideas but who also engage in making dirty money out of the misery of plants and animals they champion to protect.
This statement makes no sense to me. On one hand you are saying these decisions are made by environmentalists whose motives are well intended if not a little misguided. But then you say it is all about greed.

David
 

Roth

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Can you give some examples. This statement makes no sense to me.

David
I think I understand Howard easily on that...

Some people talk about conservation to pay themselves deluxe travels and high salaries. They broadcast to the public sad stories of a poor bird that is dying, or pictures of rhinos with their horn cut off ( I do not speak about the very interesting and well done movies on National Geographic about Thailand smuggling that is broadcast now). They get YOUR money, and pay themselves first nice cars, big salaries, deluxe hotels and travels. After, they are just hunting the next sad wildlife story to get more money, but at the end, they never complete or DO anything.

If you look at the WWF, the huge amount of money spent inside, the big salaries and dream life of some of its staff (not the ground one), let me know, compared to all the money they got, which success they achieved if any ???

In France at least, we got big fights with the WWF, because when the customs ( with the public government money) completed any big operation successfully, the WWF would pop up, ask to make a TV broadcast under a supposed WWF-Customs partnership, and ask the court to get a percentage of the fine because the poachers did a lot of damage to the wildlife, etc... but indeed they did nothing else than watching when the customs would complete an operation and come to try to pick up the benefit and eventually profit.
 
B

Braem

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I think I understand Howard easily on that...

Some people talk about conservation to pay themselves deluxe travels and high salaries. They broadcast to the public sad stories of a poor bird that is dying, or pictures of rhinos with their horn cut off ( I do not speak about the very interesting and well done movies on National Geographic about Thailand smuggling that is broadcast now). They get YOUR money, and pay themselves first nice cars, big salaries, deluxe hotels and travels. After, they are just hunting the next sad wildlife story to get more money, but at the end, they never complete or DO anything.

If you look at the WWF, the huge amount of money spent inside, the big salaries and dream life of some of its staff (not the ground one), let me know, compared to all the money they got, which success they achieved if any ???

In France at least, we got big fights with the WWF, because when the customs ( with the public government money) completed any big operation successfully, the WWF would pop up, ask to make a TV broadcast under a supposed WWF-Customs partnership, and ask the court to get a percentage of the fine because the poachers did a lot of damage to the wildlife, etc... but indeed they did nothing else than watching when the customs would complete an operation and come to try to pick up the benefit and eventually profit.
And talking about WWF ... just search for their act "cats over Borneo" ... if you don't find it, I will explain
 
B

Braem

Guest
Weird, there was a post by Swamprad /Mark asking about what could be done and interest in the thread. Can post be rescinded or disappear?
Anyway what can be done.

1. Talking about conservation is good. Talk and educate fellow orchid growers.

2. Ex situ conservation will ultimately fail if unorganized for reason I have outlined in past posts. For it to have any chance of success there must be an organized ex situ orchid conservation effort involving orchid hobbyist, commercial growers, and botanical gardens. Good record keeping and cross pollination effort to keep species genetic diversity up and hybridization out.

Orchid Societies could do this:
"The National Council for the Conservation of Plants and Gardens in the United Kingdom has a Program called the National Plant Collections, which is to be “as complete a representation of a genus or section of a genus as possible.” Some orchid genera are in this collection. A similar program could be set up with orchid societies. Orchid societies could choose to be the keepers of as complete a representation of a genus or section of a genus as possible. The collective members of the society would maintain the genus representation in their various growing situations. They could help guarantee the genetic diversity of species in the genus. Societies could choose to be the keepers of several genera. If different societies overlap by keeping the same genus, this would be beneficial. It could promote interaction between societies. An easy way to begin would be for orchid societies to assess which species their members grow. This would be an indication of the genus the society could become involved in with an ex situ conservation effort. Then orchid society members would become direct participants in orchid conservation. The effort would give orchid societies another dimension of interest in keeping and attracting new members."

Slippertalk Orchid Forum members could also do this by having a virtual sliiper orchid collection made up of all it's member (or those that want to participate) to safeguard slipper species orchids. A database could be set up like the Living Orchid Collection http://www.livingorchidcollection.org

2. In situ orchid conservation can be looking around locally trying to volunteer or save orchid habitat locally. Get your orchid society involved. Get your orchid society to join the Orchid Conservation Coalition and 1% for Orchid Conservation. An orchid society agrees to donate 1% or more of net revenue each year towards the in situ orchid conservation organization or project of its choice. Orchid conservation should be as integral to an orchid societies activities as show tables and judging. http://www.orchidconservationcoalition.org/program.html

3. As far as CITES you can try and change it, but this maybe a bigger effort
than setup an ex situ conservation program or definitely harder than joining 1% for Orchid Conservation. CITES is a trade agreement, not a conservation agreement. You have to remember that. The CITES website is http://www.cites.org/

CITES Contact information to write letters or e-mails:

CITES Secretariat
International Environment House
11 Chemin des Anémones
CH-1219 Châtelaine, Geneva
Switzerland
Tel: +41-(0)22-917-81-39/40
Fax: +41-(0)22-797-34-17
Email: info@cites.org
Just something to think about:

if you have a pile of sh... or cr... ...it does not make any difference what you do it --- make it look better, make it smell better, put a nice redhead on top of it ... whatever ... but at the end, you still have a pile of sh.. ot cr.
 
B

Braem

Guest
Whats the story about WWF cats over Borneo?
Mick
It actually was the WHO ... they parachuted cats over Borneo ... That was in the wake of overusing DDT ... The DDT was in the food chain and the cats had dies ... and now the rats took over ... and thus, some brilliant dude decided to drop cats by parachute over Borneo ... of course that was a disaster and they kept it secret until someone spilled the beans ...
So far for Nature and Health organisations protecting our world ...
 

Shiva

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I don't mean to insult everyone but I have a condition I would call ''reader fagigue''. It would be greatly alleviated if people kept their post shorter and to the point. If you can, make your argument simply. What I try to read would go very well and would be very stimulating in a face to face debate. But overloading the arguments in writing, though they might have great value, make them difficult to follow especially with the typos accumulating, words missing, intempestive contractions and differences in language. Just a few lines of text at a time would do, just like Dr Braem does.

As for CITES, It's a failure. You just can't legislate human greed and people everywhere will do whatever it takes to feed themselves and their family.
The opposite is to make plants easily available to all. In any case, forget about reintroducing plants in their original environment. Once an orchid is gone from it's environment, chances are the pollinator agent is also gone. So, unless you're willing to go in the woods with toothpicks, just enjoy them at home. ;)

Michel
 

quietaustralian

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It actually was the WHO ... they parachuted cats over Borneo ... That was in the wake of overusing DDT ... The DDT was in the food chain and the cats had dies ... and now the rats took over ... and thus, some brilliant dude decided to drop cats by parachute over Borneo ... of course that was a disaster and they kept it secret until someone spilled the beans ...
So far for Nature and Health organisations protecting our world ...
I thought you were drawing a long bow trying to pin that one on the WWF.
Now it’s time to give the WHO a kicking.
I don’t know much about the WHO, are they corrupt?
Thousands of parachuting cats made me laugh and then I thought where was the Animal Welfare League (AWL)?
Regards, Mick
 
B

Braem

Guest
I thought you were drawing a long bow trying to pin that one on the WWF.
Now it’s time to give the WHO a kicking.
I don’t know much about the WHO, are they corrupt?
Thousands of parachuting cats made me laugh and then I thought where was the Animal Welfare League (AWL)?
Regards, Mick
I don't think they are corrupt ... but I think that at time they employ people that are not endangered of being suspected of getting a Nobel prize. What I note is that we biologists, especially taxonomists and ecologists have trouble finding good jobs (if I would not have been supoorted by a very good wife, I would be in real trouble) whereass these organisations like WHO, WWF, CITES etc seem to employ (at least in part) a number of sh..h..ds.
 
H

Howzat

Guest
I think I understand Howard easily on that...

Some people talk about conservation to pay themselves deluxe travels and high salaries. They broadcast to the public sad stories of a poor bird that is dying, or pictures of rhinos with their horn cut off ( I do not speak about the very interesting and well done movies on National Geographic about Thailand smuggling that is broadcast now). They get YOUR money, and pay themselves first nice cars, big salaries, deluxe hotels and travels. After, they are just hunting the next sad wildlife story to get more money, but at the end, they never complete or DO anything.

If you look at the WWF, the huge amount of money spent inside, the big salaries and dream life of some of its staff (not the ground one), let me know, compared to all the money they got, which success they achieved if any ???

In France at least, we got big fights with the WWF, because when the customs ( with the public government money) completed any big operation successfully, the WWF would pop up, ask to make a TV broadcast under a supposed WWF-Customs partnership, and ask the court to get a percentage of the fine because the poachers did a lot of damage to the wildlife, etc... but indeed they did nothing else than watching when the customs would complete an operation and come to try to pick up the benefit and eventually profit.
Roth
Thanks for explaining that in response to David's. My original post was based on your in depth knowledge of WWF, CITES personnel.
Howard
 
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