Which roths to choose?

[Fabrice]

Look at my Val X Mont Millais. It's just a "correct" roth but when I bought it, I thought to have best flowers. Of course not as "Perfection" for example but better than that!
The shape is not very good, the flower not very colored and the size is small (22cms)
So, is it really this cross...???

To be sure, if I bought a roth now, I'll buy Borneo Dark x Dark Chocolate (I have also this cross!)

 

[Paul]

I suggest you to send me this plant, maybe the flowers will become bigger and better in my growing area ...

 

[Hien]

Those crosses are a little bit phony, I am nearly sure they are not at all Rex x MM and Val x MM... There are several photos of the plants on ebay.de that I have seen, and they looks like some unnamed crosses with a nice tag to sell more expensive.

Borneo Dark x Dark Chocolate would be much safer to buy, at least it would have the proper parents.

There was one division comes up on ebay, I am surprised that it went with one bidder. Does it make sense?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350202939272&_trkparms=tab=Watching

 

[paphioland]

Borneo Dark x Dark Chocolate

Everyone is saying this cross. Show me one great example from this cross or post the dimensions of the parents.

I do agree that is improbable that a rex x mm hasn't bloomed yet but it is definitely possible to find a real one.

 

[Roth]

Look at that:

http://cgi.ebay.de/Paphiopedilum-rothschildianum-Mont-Millais-x-Rex-1_W0QQitemZ270395508627

At that size, and the many plants offered of Rex x MM and Val x MM. all in the same european pots and the same size, it is definitely not Rex x MM... Plus no one in Europe has those 3 parents to remake thoses crosses.

The same seller is offering
http://cgi.ebay.de/Phragmipedium-besseae-Big-Bob-x-Colossal-1_W0QQitemZ270395856121

Which it is definitely not... So for the MM crosses it is even more doubtful...

Favrice, yours is definitely typical of a roth from unknown parentage sold as Val x MM... I know there is a big joke behind all thoses selected parents seedlings, many are not what they are supposed to be, including from famous growers. Time will tell.

As for me I just bloomed some Arthit x Butterfly roths, from Arthit nursery, and they are definitely seedlings made with crappy parents. The clonal names help to sell more expensive thats all. The same apply with all thoses DouFong, Big Garden, Fly Eagle, Green Valley blabla plants from Taiwan, they all come from a couple of crosses with unknown parents. Though there are some really excellent ones in thoses plants, but it is a matter of luck.

Thats why I think Borneo Dark x DArk Chocolate will give the best flowers of the 3 crosses OFFERED, because at least there are little chances that someone used thoses clonal name to cheat the people. The MM crosses being fake, they can be anything from Charles E x Borneo low quality selfings to simply jungle capsules, or selfingd of a roth that happened to bloom somewhere...

Another thing, I am nearly sure I have seen the same roths plants offered as MM crosses somewhere, but very cheap - 6 euros, and without clonal name... I cannot guarantee 100 percent, but it is most likely...

The Green Vally division on ebay is obviously not that plant, maybe a sibling...

 

[Drorchid]

I am actually the one that made the 'Borneo Dark' x 'Dark Chocolate' cross. At the time when I made the cross, they were some of the best roths we had in our collection. Those 2 clones had the darkest flowers of all the clones we had at the time, and that is why I sibbed them together. I agree with Paphioland, that they are probably not as large and well shaped as clones from Val x Mont Millais and Rex x Mont Millais that I have seen, but I actually was surprised in the quality of the first seedlings to bloom from the 'Borneo Dark' x 'Dark Chocolate' cross. They were actually an improvement over either parent. One of the clones ('Black Licorice') had a natural spread of 28 cm, which is not the best, but is better than average. They definitely are very dark in color.

Here are some pics of some of the first seedlings to bloom of 'Borneo Dark' x 'Dark Chocolate':

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11648&highlight=Borneo+Dark

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11917&highlight=Borneo+Dark

We also have some plants from the 'Green Valley' x 'Fly Eagle' cross. They have some of the largest and well shaped flowers I have seen (even better than some of the Rex x MM clones). One bad characteristic of that cross that I have noticed, is that they have all been very susceptible to rot; we lost almost half of the plants we had.

Here is a picture of one of the clones from 'Green Valley' x 'Fly Eagle':

http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11915&highlight=Borneo+Dark

The 'Borneo Dark' x 'Dark Chocolate' plants are much stronger and less susceptible to rot. Also they have been very vigorous and the first seedlings bloomed after only 3 to 4 years after coming out of the flask.

So my suggestion would be, if you want good sized flowers to get the Rex x Mount Millais or the Val x MM cross, but if you want dark flowers on a vigorous plant that probably will bloom fast to get the Borne Dark x Dark Chocolate cross. Also the last one is a cross that one of our slippertalk members made (aka me...), so at least you know what you are getting.

Robert

 

[Fabrice]

Thanks Robert.

Certainly, you know very good the "World of orchids". Do you have an advice about the Rex X MM and Val X MM?
Do you think the crosses to sell at this time are really Rex X MM or Val X MM or do you tend to agree with Sanderianum?

 

[Ayreon]

Haha, great Robert! Thanks for thi information. As I wrote before I have already ordered the Borneo cross and the MM x Val (or whatever it is). I'm not an experienced Roth grower, so I think I will be pleased with just any roth I manage to get into bloom. I have two unnamed ones as well.

 

[Drorchid]

Thanks Robert.

Certainly, you know very good the "World of orchids". Do you have an advice about the Rex X MM and Val X MM?
Do you think the crosses to sell at this time are really Rex X MM or Val X MM or do you tend to agree with Sanderianum?

I would say it depends on where you get them from. If you buy them on ebay from an unknown seller, who knows what they really are, they may give them fake parent names, just so they can get a higher price, but if you get them from a reliable Paph grower, like Frank Smith, Sam Tsui, aka the Orchid Inn (or us, aka Orchids Limited) you know that the parentage is correct.

If you want a really good clone, it is always best to buy it when it is in bloom, so have the nursery you buy it from send you pictures of their clones in flower that they are selling. At least you know what you will be getting then. Unfortunately if they are really good, you may end up paying a high price. If you get an unbloomed seedling they are usually a lot cheaper.

Robert

 

[Drorchid]

Haha, great Robert! Thanks for thi information. As I wrote before I have already ordered the Borneo cross and the MM x Val (or whatever it is). I'm not an experienced Roth grower, so I think I will be pleased with just any roth I manage to get into bloom. I have two unnamed ones as well.

Are they all the same size? Let us know which one blooms first.

Robert

 

[goldenrose]

:clap: That's the attitude Aryeon! :clap:
I've been reading this thread & withholding from comment. I know their are dishonest people out there but even OZ has times were plants don't bloom their best! Is every sib from a well known producing cross outstanding? I doubt it! I'd love to have a show quality/awarded/awardable plant, wouldn't most of us? If that's what you were expecting when buying a certain cross, then I can understand the disappointment but is it fair to automatically assume that the seller screwed you?

 

[Fabrice]

Yes, you're right.

But Sanderianum tell us that's it's IMPOSSIBLE to have currently crosses Rex X MM and Val X MM. So, it's logic to have questions...

 

[rdlsreno]

Haha, great Robert! Thanks for thi information. As I wrote before I have already ordered the Borneo cross and the MM x Val (or whatever it is). I'm not an experienced Roth grower, so I think I will be pleased with just any roth I manage to get into bloom. I have two unnamed ones as well.

Good Choice!!!


Ramon

 

[Drorchid]

Yes, you're right.

But Sanderianum tell us that's it's IMPOSSIBLE to have currently crosses Rex X MM and Val X MM. So, it's logic to have questions...

I don't know about the Val. x MM, but we still have some Rex x MM plants, so I don't think it is impossible to be selling those plants.

Robert

 

[emydura]

Thanks Robert. The 'Borneo Dark' x 'Dark Chocolate' sure looks nice to me. For me colour is much more important than size. And plant vigour is also important. The 'Borneo Dark' x 'Dark Chocolate' cross seems the one for me. I've just got to find one in Australia.

David

 

[Ayreon]

Are they all the same size? Let us know which one blooms first.

Robert

The MMxVal is bigger so it will probably bloom first.

I asked the seller about the origins of the plants and he says the MM crosses are from a friend who brought flasks from Taiwan some years ago.

 

[Fabrice]

we still have some Rex x MM plants, Robert

OOOOoooohhh!!! Interesting!!! How much for the next show in Europe???!!!:rollhappy:

(I think my BD X DC will bloom next year; It's right that's a vigourous plant and mine is compact)

 

[Roth]

I don't know about the Val. x MM, but we still have some Rex x MM plants, so I don't think it is impossible to be selling those plants.

Robert

The plants on ebay are obviously 2 years approx from flask, that's why I am sure it is impossible for someone to sell thoses Rex x MM and Val x MM... And if they come from Taiwan, I know for sure that they do not sell any Rex x MM or Val x MM now. If they had such crosses, they would still sell it. At the best it is Rex x MM or Val x MM selfings or siblings, at the worst, it is the Taiwanese style, and the parents are put according to the seller's wishes...

Speaking of Rex x MM, I have a big doubt that even the source of that cross sometimes messed up a little bit with the parentage... First there were 2 types of plants sold under that parentage, obviously different leaves, and very different flower quality... second the source had many others roths crosses that disappeared instantly from their offer, like Rex x Mt Kinabalu :evil: to be replaced by Rex x MM only...

And Robert, your Green Valley x Fly Eagle has a small problem, when I ordered first from Taiwan GV x FE and Fly Eagle x Big Garden, they explicitely told me that the FE x BG has wide leaves, the GV x FE narrow leaves... but from my experience in blooming thoses, the plants you showed a picture of looks exactly like most of my FE x BG, the GV x FE were really ugly... But now, if you order FE x BG you flower a crap that looks like a Charles E x Borneo cross... Go figure...

About 75 per cent of the plants I got from Taiwan of roths from thoses crosses were contaminated in the rhizome or a couple of roots by Pythium by the way... Either they would slowly be stunted and die, or collapse after blooming, or sometimes get a faster basal rot.

Sam Tsui is buying and reselling a lot of crosses, so his reliability depends on hus suppliers. Once the Tokyo Orchid Nursery sold to him fake Val x MM, they turned out to be t Swithin, and I was one of the lucky owner. He did good on that, but I think it is possible to trust any supplier only if they have the parents themselves, really and honestly, or if the plants can be traced back to the real source... Sam has been cheated on some instances, even with the Rex x MM...

 

[Hien]

The plants on ebay are obviously 2 years approx from flask, that's why I am sure it is impossible for someone to sell thoses Rex x MM and Val x MM... And if they come from Taiwan, I know for sure that they do not sell any Rex x MM or Val x MM now. If they had such crosses, they would still sell it. At the best it is Rex x MM or Val x MM selfings or siblings, at the worst, it is the Taiwanese style, and the parents are put according to the seller's wishes...

Speaking of Rex x MM, I have a big doubt that even the source of that cross sometimes messed up a little bit with the parentage... First there were 2 types of plants sold under that parentage, obviously different leaves, and very different flower quality... second the source had many others roths crosses that disappeared instantly from their offer, like Rex x Mt Kinabalu :evil: to be replaced by Rex x MM only...

And Robert, your Green Valley x Fly Eagle has a small problem, when I ordered first from Taiwan GV x FE and Fly Eagle x Big Garden, they explicitely told me that the FE x BG has wide leaves, the GV x FE narrow leaves... but from my experience in blooming thoses, the plants you showed a picture of looks exactly like most of my FE x BG, the GV x FE were really ugly... But now, if you order FE x BG you flower a crap that looks like a Charles E x Borneo cross... Go figure...

About 75 per cent of the plants I got from Taiwan of roths from thoses crosses were contaminated in the rhizome or a couple of roots by Pythium by the way... Either they would slowly be stunted and die, or collapse after blooming, or sometimes get a faster basal rot.

Sam Tsui is buying and reselling a lot of crosses, so his reliability depends on hus suppliers. Once the Tokyo Orchid Nursery sold to him fake Val x MM, they turned out to be t Swithin, and I was one of the lucky owner. He did good on that, but I think it is possible to trust any supplier only if they have the parents themselves, really and honestly, or if the plants can be traced back to the real source... Sam has been cheated on some instances, even with the Rex x MM...

Perhaps the solution is that everyone will start from scratch (forget about those lineages).
Pick out the best plants (regardless of the prestigious or non prestigious parents' name sake) name those clones, and start again from there.

 

[Kevin]

Perhaps the solution is that everyone will start from scratch (forget about those lineages).
Pick out the best plants (regardless of the prestigious or non prestigious parents' name sake) name those clones, and start again from there.

Or, maybe people can just be honest!!!

Just wondering why some plants can be 'impossible' to be found in a certain part of the world. With the right paperwork, can't anything be exported and imported anywhere?