emydura
Well-Known Member
The colour in 'Black Vision' is astonishing. The 'Awesome' clone ain't bad either.
Paphiopedilum rothschildianum with true pedigree, second flowering
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The colour in 'Black Vision' is astonishing. The 'Awesome' clone ain't bad either.
Happypaphy7
Paphlover
I love the one in the middle of the group shot. Aesthetically very pleasing to me.
No wonder it won a gold medal in Japan.
Very nice TON pics…Excellent roths.
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Nice Sky... ahem...I mean, nice rothschildianums!
Totally joking, I just wanted to be "that" guy for a minute.
Xavier, I do not breed roth's. I have very little interest in joining a large crowd of international roth breeders, many of whom are reputable and are producing some of the best roths in the world. Even if I were inclined to line breed roths I would be starting 10 - 15 years behind these breeders and given the amount of time it takes roths to get from seed pod to flowering size I don't see the value in joining the crowd. Me, you, or anyone else can buy line bred roths from any number of reputable sources. By the way, I count myself in agreement with something one of the members here has said multiple time, there are no bad roths. So if line breeding to get a bigger, darker flower is your passion, then do it. I can, however, tell you that I have seen thousands of roths in flower, both in situ, in private collections, at orchid shows, at judging events, at orchid society meetings, on sales benches, at the Orchid Zone, at many of the Taiwanese nurseries, and I am familiar with what makes a great roth, at the moment. I don't need to have plants in production to know what I am looking at. I do have roths in my collection, and I am happy to post photos of four of my plants here. Let's play game, shall we?
I am happy to read that you know divisions of Mt. Millais indeed are in Japan and the U.S. Your assertion that no division of Mt. Millais nor pollen are, nor ever were, in Taiwan is not accurate.
Of course there are frauds and liars in the orchid business. This we all know and this is not news nor should it come as a surprise to anyone on this site. We are not the type of growers who buy our orchids at the supermarket. One of the worst offenders is here in the United States and are responsible for what might be the biggest fraud perpetrated on the orchid community in the past 200 years. But let's stay on topic. What I take offense to is the apparently haphazard manner in which assertions of fraud and knowingly selling and fraudulently naming line bred roths is being thrown around based on personal opinion and hand me down second third, and fourth hand stories. Disparaging breeders who produce better results and/or achieve a breeding goal that you, or anyone else, has not, is not called for. Implying that all Taiwanese roths with Mt. Millais listed on the tag as a breeding parent are frauds is to broadly disparage and cast doubt, publicly, on every Paph breeder and nursery on the Island of Taiwan and that is not true and likewise uncalled for. I personally know, have met, and visited, one of the breeders alluded to in this thread and I am confident you have it wrong. I also know that you don't know, have never met, and never been to the nursery of the same person. It's not just roths Xavier. I have known of you for 30 years, from your time in Vietnam at the turn of the century at least (we have spoken in the past but I am sure you don't remember) and know of more than a few outrageous and simply wrong claims that have been made. One recent one being that all the plants of Paph primulinum in the jungle are planted hybrids. This is likewise not true. So if we have something specific to share about a specific breeder or breeding line, let's share that and keep it to that.
I do not agree with you that every roth is going to bloom out to look like the parents regardless of plant selection, genetic diversity and culture. That is not what my decades of growing orchids and field research has taught me. Let's agree to disagree.
Getting back having a little fun with this, here are 4 of my roths. The photos are named roths 1 through 4. Without me telling anyone who the parents are, thus inviting answers such as "That's wrong because it doesn't look like the parents, you were defrauded/the breeder is a liar" type of answers. I do give my word to be honest in responding back in a few days. Some of you know the answers, I trust in good faith you will let this play out. Let's test this theory. Who are my mommy and daddy?
Best,
View attachment Roth 1.JPG
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Thanks Frank,
This a great article and nice-looking Roths, and you picked up some good-looking Roths at the WOC recently, I agree, I too have met the same Taiwanese breeders over the years, like anywhere there are rogues, villains and honest people. You can't paint everyone with a broad brush. Let the buyer beware.
Royal.
Roth
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Dear Frank,
As for the primulinum, indeed there were some collected recently. This said, the bulk of what was exported before, and sold in the world, with a few exceptions came from Floricultura, who, over 30 years ago, had a partnership with Bintangdelapan in Indonesia. They produced a lot of Pinnochio for the then booming local market, as well as some hybrids. Bintangdelapan had as well a lot of dealing with Kabukiran back then, to get a lot of Philippines plants, and use them as parents, to cater to a warmer growing environment...
It is very surprising too that, in many of the newly described species, some looking like urbanianum and acmodontum hybrids, but from Indonesia. Some of those plants were selfed and raised from seed, and there is a quite high percentage of 'albino' that appeared. I know of at least a dozen agusii albums, as an example. Was there any albino Maudiae in the ancestry, or??? That's a quite open, honest question.
For the rothschildianum it is not a third hand, or fourth hand story, I saw, and witnessed some tag swap.
I recognize, like at the EOC Dresden, a lot of Complex Paphiopedilum that came straight from Durbusch Orchideeen, a lot of Phalaenopsis that came from Optiflor, a lot of Epidendrum, from Optiflor... All had a great pedigree and nice names at the show, but even the suppliers had no clue as to the parentage. Does it sound to you like honest and fair? The Best Phalaenopsis hybrid awarded there, a ' homegrown Sogo Yukidian' was recognized as an Opti-Flor pot plant sold a coupel days before the show. It is a Join Glory Cl-361-C... and not a Sogo Yukidian. A lot of plants had fancy names, but I saw them before, by the pot plant nurseries, nameless. Suddenly, they got names, awards, etc...
Up to which extent can you say people doing so are honest and fair? Can you trust someone doing this to be honest about the pedigree of the remaining of his plants? That's the question...
As for the arrival of Mt Millais in Taiwan, the Taiwanese honestly believe they got it. However, the couple of photos on Facebook of what they call Mt Millais show clearly it is not... I remember those roths sold all around the world as 'Commander', including in Japan and Taiwan, by famous nurseries. They were sourced from Pol van Boostraten in Belgium, who had one huge clump of a roth he never bloomed...
At a point, a famous grower from Germany went to the Netherlands, I was present, to a nursery called Van der Weijden in Kudelstaart. They had a lot of Pinnochio, and crosses similar to it, as pot plants, on a contract growing for Floricultura. There was discovered the 'moquetteanum album', and the 'glaucophyllum album'. I was present... Were selected too the 'primulinum 4n' from the Orchid Zone at the same time.
Just chose the leaves, the flowers, and deal done. Would you fully trust someone doing so on the pedigree of seedlings he sells? That's the question...
Another question, about a rarity, hennissianum album. It is my experience that the ones coming from Hans Christiansen, when crossed with albinos Maudiae, give coloratum progeny. It applies as well to fowlei album and ciliolare album. Apparently the Philippines Barbata are of a different albino group than the albino Maudiae types.
A lot of the newer hennissianum albums give albino when crossed with albino Maudiae. The reason is simple, they are hybrids...
Onto the photos, it does not work like that, and you know it well. It is possible to know if a seedling/progeny of a parent is a fraud. It is not possible to determine from a plant what are its exact parents.
One example, if I buy a rothschildianum x philippinense, and bloom a Magic Lantern, I know it is not the proper parents. The reverse, I bloom a St Swithinish like flower, it might be St Swithin, or a backcross, or a more complex cross. This is not relevant.
Let's say that Mt Millais does impact some very specific traits in all of its progeny, and when the said progeny does not have it, it is not the parent. It applies to a lot of parents. On another side, the problem being that,, whether Taiwan or Europe, or Japan, when the seedlings are from the proper parents, a huge majority are of high quality in rothschildianum. You can take many crosses, there are many photos posted, including of Dark Angel x Howard Martin to give one popular example. They bloom in the UK, the US, etc... and they look like the parents. Different growing conditions, growing skills, speed... but still, you recognize the parents.
Can you let me know why people who grew those DA x HM, and bloom some of Orchid Inn roths get 90% very good flowers on DA x HM, and none at all on the Orchid Inn, until now? Same culture, same conditions. I do not mean even myself being involved. I am curious to know the explanation you can have.
As for Taiwan, yes there are some very honest breeders, that is clear. But a lot of Sunlight Sky Roths are ending up as gigantic rothschildianum, as well... This is a fact, and not a hearsay.
As for the primulinum, indeed there were some collected recently. This said, the bulk of what was exported before, and sold in the world, with a few exceptions came from Floricultura, who, over 30 years ago, had a partnership with Bintangdelapan in Indonesia. They produced a lot of Pinnochio for the then booming local market, as well as some hybrids. Bintangdelapan had as well a lot of dealing with Kabukiran back then, to get a lot of Philippines plants, and use them as parents, to cater to a warmer growing environment...
It is very surprising too that, in many of the newly described species, some looking like urbanianum and acmodontum hybrids, but from Indonesia. Some of those plants were selfed and raised from seed, and there is a quite high percentage of 'albino' that appeared. I know of at least a dozen agusii albums, as an example. Was there any albino Maudiae in the ancestry, or??? That's a quite open, honest question.
For the rothschildianum it is not a third hand, or fourth hand story, I saw, and witnessed some tag swap.
I recognize, like at the EOC Dresden, a lot of Complex Paphiopedilum that came straight from Durbusch Orchideeen, a lot of Phalaenopsis that came from Optiflor, a lot of Epidendrum, from Optiflor... All had a great pedigree and nice names at the show, but even the suppliers had no clue as to the parentage. Does it sound to you like honest and fair? The Best Phalaenopsis hybrid awarded there, a ' homegrown Sogo Yukidian' was recognized as an Opti-Flor pot plant sold a coupel days before the show. It is a Join Glory Cl-361-C... and not a Sogo Yukidian. A lot of plants had fancy names, but I saw them before, by the pot plant nurseries, nameless. Suddenly, they got names, awards, etc...
Up to which extent can you say people doing so are honest and fair? Can you trust someone doing this to be honest about the pedigree of the remaining of his plants? That's the question...
As for the arrival of Mt Millais in Taiwan, the Taiwanese honestly believe they got it. However, the couple of photos on Facebook of what they call Mt Millais show clearly it is not... I remember those roths sold all around the world as 'Commander', including in Japan and Taiwan, by famous nurseries. They were sourced from Pol van Boostraten in Belgium, who had one huge clump of a roth he never bloomed...
At a point, a famous grower from Germany went to the Netherlands, I was present, to a nursery called Van der Weijden in Kudelstaart. They had a lot of Pinnochio, and crosses similar to it, as pot plants, on a contract growing for Floricultura. There was discovered the 'moquetteanum album', and the 'glaucophyllum album'. I was present... Were selected too the 'primulinum 4n' from the Orchid Zone at the same time.
Just chose the leaves, the flowers, and deal done. Would you fully trust someone doing so on the pedigree of seedlings he sells? That's the question...
Another question, about a rarity, hennissianum album. It is my experience that the ones coming from Hans Christiansen, when crossed with albinos Maudiae, give coloratum progeny. It applies as well to fowlei album and ciliolare album. Apparently the Philippines Barbata are of a different albino group than the albino Maudiae types.
A lot of the newer hennissianum albums give albino when crossed with albino Maudiae. The reason is simple, they are hybrids...
Onto the photos, it does not work like that, and you know it well. It is possible to know if a seedling/progeny of a parent is a fraud. It is not possible to determine from a plant what are its exact parents.
One example, if I buy a rothschildianum x philippinense, and bloom a Magic Lantern, I know it is not the proper parents. The reverse, I bloom a St Swithinish like flower, it might be St Swithin, or a backcross, or a more complex cross. This is not relevant.
Let's say that Mt Millais does impact some very specific traits in all of its progeny, and when the said progeny does not have it, it is not the parent. It applies to a lot of parents. On another side, the problem being that,, whether Taiwan or Europe, or Japan, when the seedlings are from the proper parents, a huge majority are of high quality in rothschildianum. You can take many crosses, there are many photos posted, including of Dark Angel x Howard Martin to give one popular example. They bloom in the UK, the US, etc... and they look like the parents. Different growing conditions, growing skills, speed... but still, you recognize the parents.
Can you let me know why people who grew those DA x HM, and bloom some of Orchid Inn roths get 90% very good flowers on DA x HM, and none at all on the Orchid Inn, until now? Same culture, same conditions. I do not mean even myself being involved. I am curious to know the explanation you can have.
As for Taiwan, yes there are some very honest breeders, that is clear. But a lot of Sunlight Sky Roths are ending up as gigantic rothschildianum, as well... This is a fact, and not a hearsay.
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tnyr5
Well-Known Member
Funnily enough, what convinced me not to buy the Japanese roth grexes Sam was selling was not any allegation of impropriety on his part, but rather the photos of the "select" blooming plants for sale in Japan from the same grexes that Sam had.
astro
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The Tokyo Orchid Nursery told me that many years ago they sold a division of Mont Millais to the Taiwanese Nursery. At least we know that the plant came from the Tokyo Orchid Nursery, regardless of whether it is a real Mt. Millais or not.
Now this is specific and very, very helpful. This is also not surprising. Nurseries in that part of the world are known to be deceptive and selling Pinocchio as the species would not be surprising. Many plants in cultivation labelled as primulinum are Pinocchio and they don't all originate from the same Indonesian nursery. It takes an experienced eye to see the hybrid. It is not always easy. However, there are still lots of primulinum in the jungle and they are the real thing. Of course it is not as plentiful as it once was but then again that can be said about almost every species of Paph. However not all Indonesian nurseries are crooks. Some do business the right way and take a much longer view of their relationships with clients and other nurseries and some can be counted on to sell plants true to the name. Although honestly since a few of the bigger consumers of Indonesian plants are gone I could not say for sure if the quality and accuracy of Indonesian plants is what it once was. Many European and South American nurseries are at present trying to expand into Indonesia and I expect the next few years to see more Indonesian plants on the market. Time will tell.
Best,
Many species of Paphs have blurred lines between species names. I don't like using the term "complex", to me it is a lazy way out of doing your homework and lumping many dubious names under one umbrella. However, all the forms/names of villosum, gratrixianum, barbigerum, lowii, can, and probably will, be debated until someone puts on their boots and gets out to the field and does the research. Some of the new names, such as agusii, are very similar to other names but are also different. Now if agusii is in fact limited to Aceh, then geography gives additional wieght to the species proposal. The scientific community can not be faulted for not encountering the new species from Aceh sooner as there was, from what I am told a drug/guerrilla presence/war in that part of Indonesia until recently, when collectors felt safe enough to go in there and have a look around and found some interesting Paphs that turned out to be worth a description. I think bugebelangii will survive the test of time, but dodyanum, agusii, lunatum, will certainly be tested as our knowledge expands. Those species were collected under the names liemianum and tonsum (excluding agusii) and sold internationally as such and it was not until a year or more later that someone, probably at the urging of commercial interests somewhere, described them as "new species". The questions will persist until someone does a comprehensive study of the genus, based on field research, and can define what the species concept in the genus should be. Until then species delineations based on subtle differences appears to be what is accepted and agusii can be sustained based on geographical isolation from urbanianum and subtle differences, as we see with all the names associated with the aforementioned "complexes" of species. Yes, agusii comes from natural populations and this is not in question. We can't complain about agusii and not about lynniae, dodyanum, lunatum, roebelinii, boxalii, etc., etc., etc., etc. As for the number of agusii albums, I have no exposure to the source plant(s) or nursery and would only be speculating. That being said, some albums have been found in small groups of 3 or 4 plants close to each other and have been found in clumps of 4-6 growths. So 8 is not impossible, however improbable it might appear.
Best,
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Many years ago, in the 1990's, I was at Paph Guild in California. It was still run by Norris Powell at that time. Norris invited a geneticist from the University of California to come speak about albino Paphs. Which one of the UC's it was is long gone from my memory as is the name of the geneticist. But I do remember his talk, his research, and his conclusions. He said that albino slipper orchids present as albinos for two reasons. One, the gene that directs the flower to produce pigment is missing. There is no genetic control to direct the production of pigment, thus there is none in the plant or flower. The second is the there is a gene that directs the plant to suppress color. In this circumstance, the plant has the gene to produce pigment but another part of the plants genetics directs that gene to stay inactive, thus the plant produces no pigment and we see an albino.
Accepting this as true, and I am not a geneticist, if we self an albino or cross an albino with another albino we have no idea what we are going to get until we see the result. If we cross 2 albinos that lack the gene to produce pigment, we will certainly get an albino product. However, if the abinism is caused by a gene that suppresses pigmentation, then the results will be skewed as not all the progeny will have the gene needed to suppress color. The "not 100%" success rate at blooming out some purportedly albino crosses and selfings appears to support these conclusions. The offspring would need to inherit the correct gene to suppress pigmentation and this is never guaranteed, in any species of plant or animal.
Thus, these results you describe are not at all surprising and not indicative of fraudulent hybrids being pushed off as species.
Best,
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In the United States we have a popular expression, the "Monday Morning Quarterback". For those of you outside the United States who don't follow American football, this expression describes a person who, on the Monday morning after Sundays football games, proffers his opinions as to what his favorite team should have done in a certain situation. Because he is opining on the correct thing to do the Monday after the games, he is always right and can appear to be a football guru. Use of this expression has spread to business, academic, and other cultural uses. The internet defines a Monday Morning Quarterback as "a person who criticizes the actions or decisions of others after the fact, using hindsight to assess situations and specify alternative solutions."
With respect, and Xavier you have almost as much experience with Paphs as I do (wink wink), criticizing a roth, the nursery, breeder and seller of the plant after you see the flowers is not terribly insightful and is subjective at best, and probably little more than a personal opinion. If you can't identify the parents from looking at the flower then you can't say with certitude that the progeny are not from the parents listed. If this were as easy as you claim, then it would be easy to spot any roth that has Mt. Millais as parent. But it is not that simple, especially when Mt. Millais might be a grandparent, some characteristics might have skipped a generation, or a roth simply gets better after one generation, and perhaps, worse. Line breeding doesn't always move in one direction. Plant selection plays a part (maybe some runts that get to blooming size don't look like, or bahave like, mommy and daddy), which flowers from a cross the photographer/nursery owner chooses to select as the best and photograph plays a part, genetic diversity plays a part, and I also believe culture plays a part. Some of us are just better growers than others and it shows in the quality of our plants.
So here you go:
Roth 1: Shih Yueh Big GM/TOGA (DS 7.1cm) x Mt. Millais FCC/AOS, RHS
Roth 2: sib cross of 2 unnamed plants from the cross (Gold Star SM/TOGA x Mt. Millais FCC/AOS/RHC). Mt. Millais is grandpa.
Roth 3: Sunlight Lion (NS 32.5, DS 6.6cm) x Huang Hua Village SM TPS (DS 7cm)
Roth 4: Jungle plant, Mother Nature x Daddy Nature. This is not easy, is it?
I keep my word.
Best,
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Thanks, Frank,
I have a few of the same crosses; Shih Yueh Big GM/TOGA (DS 7.1cm) x Mt. Millais FCC/AOS, RHS & Sunlight Lion (NS 32.5, DS 6.6cm) x Huang Hua Village SM TPS (DS 7cm) so it will be interesting to see how they compare in years to come. It is very hard to pick certain characteristics of parents or grandparents, due to genetic diversity and what traits are turned on in crosses. Excellent articles mate.
I have a few of the same crosses; Shih Yueh Big GM/TOGA (DS 7.1cm) x Mt. Millais FCC/AOS, RHS & Sunlight Lion (NS 32.5, DS 6.6cm) x Huang Hua Village SM TPS (DS 7cm) so it will be interesting to see how they compare in years to come. It is very hard to pick certain characteristics of parents or grandparents, due to genetic diversity and what traits are turned on in crosses. Excellent articles mate.
emydura
Well-Known Member
In Australia we say 'Monday's expert'. Wedding's, Parties, Anything even wrote a song about it.
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