Aren't you required to have permits to collect them? And if so, is the name requirement waived if in the country of origin?
'The Scent of Scandal" discussion
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Aren't you required to have permits to collect them? And if so, is the name requirement waived if in the country of origin?
NYEric
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I think that depends on the country. In South America I believe you have to have a collecting permit, Asia...IDK 
Roth
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It is not quite correct. A country can issue permits for a genus without the species, and origin wild collected. In this case, you can get export/import permits easily. The Scientific Authority of the export country has a look at the specimen, decides if it is a phrag, a paph, or an Appendix II orchid, and issues the permit, no problem, and it did happen for the Vietnamese Paphiopedilum that were described by Averyanov even...
For Paphiopedilum, you can get a permit for a new, undescribed species, for scientifical purposes ( such as describing it), if you, as an importer, are a scientific institution, so there is no problem to move a new, undescribed species, with the proper permits... There are such permits recorded in the CITES Trade Database, but none for paphiopedilum ( there are some, however for other appendix I genera), except to Russia.
Note that for Paphiopedilum ooii, it is very clear that the holotype at Kew ( mentioned K) has been smuggled, as there are no permits to England for Paphiopedilum from Malaysia in that time frame...
Phragmipedium fischerii came first as a 'schlimii with besseae leaves' in the middle of the 90's, and was traded as a schlimii, until it has been found to be a different species. Same for andretteae, and the other one described not long ago ( that are forms of schlimii to my mind).
M
Marc
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Xavier as I'm from the Netherlands myself I'm quite interested regarding your statement regarding Dutch companies selling Paphs for the pot plant market. Could you tell us more please?
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Bummer, I don't buy books anymore and it's not available yet as an ebook.
I have not read the book.
I can tell you that Kovack did have options to have the plant identified/described here in Peru. So that is not an excuse to smuggle it out of the country. He would have never been given a permit to collect and remove the undescribed species from Peru legally. BUT he could have purchased his specimens from the local person selling them and taken them to the authorized taxonomist in Peru (only one person). No one would have cared how he acquired the specimens. No one would have asked to see a collecting permit. He could have asked to have it named after himself and would probably have been given that option. To the taxonomist it would have been just another plant.
Kovack did nothing to harm the environment by smuggling the plants out of Peru. There are still wild kovachii growing in Peru. The species is not near extinction. You can still by plants in the roadside markets near Moyobamba.
prices are higher now $12 for a potted plant or $37.73 for a plant with two spikes. There were 5 available at one shop a couple weeks ago.
Kovack's mistake was rushing the description to ace out the legitimate taxonomists who actually had discovered the species.
The whole issue is about scientific jealously.
I can tell you that Kovack did have options to have the plant identified/described here in Peru. So that is not an excuse to smuggle it out of the country. He would have never been given a permit to collect and remove the undescribed species from Peru legally. BUT he could have purchased his specimens from the local person selling them and taken them to the authorized taxonomist in Peru (only one person). No one would have cared how he acquired the specimens. No one would have asked to see a collecting permit. He could have asked to have it named after himself and would probably have been given that option. To the taxonomist it would have been just another plant.
Kovack did nothing to harm the environment by smuggling the plants out of Peru. There are still wild kovachii growing in Peru. The species is not near extinction. You can still by plants in the roadside markets near Moyobamba.
prices are higher now $12 for a potted plant or $37.73 for a plant with two spikes. There were 5 available at one shop a couple weeks ago.
Kovack's mistake was rushing the description to ace out the legitimate taxonomists who actually had discovered the species.
The whole issue is about scientific jealously.
Lance, I think you hit the nail on the finger. It's very likely that actions by those who had been aced out by Kovach certainly facilitated the events that followed.
NYEric
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SlipperFan
Addicted
The following is from Peter Croezen, who has the perspective of someone who was involved in this saga from the beginning:
"Peru at the time of this orchid find, did have two local taxonomists, Eric Christenson and Dave Bennett. Local nurseries were issued collecting permits, but foreign visitors were not. If a local collector did find a "what he believed to be" new species. He/she had to report it to INRENA and the local taxonomists would identify it and give it a name. Unnamed species can not be given a CITES certificate. Thus there was never an opportunity to take an unnamed species out of the country legally and.. there was no need for it, since the new species finds could be identified in Peru itself."
"Peru at the time of this orchid find, did have two local taxonomists, Eric Christenson and Dave Bennett. Local nurseries were issued collecting permits, but foreign visitors were not. If a local collector did find a "what he believed to be" new species. He/she had to report it to INRENA and the local taxonomists would identify it and give it a name. Unnamed species can not be given a CITES certificate. Thus there was never an opportunity to take an unnamed species out of the country legally and.. there was no need for it, since the new species finds could be identified in Peru itself."
JeanLux
Well-Known Member
I got the book today !! Jean
!! Jean
L
Leo_5313
Guest
I am reading this book now (I am on page 100)! Here is a link to an article about smuggling that is related; it also summarizes what happened to the Pk case: http://www.msmbb.org.my/apjmbb/html181/181ap.pdf
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SlipperFan
Addicted
Interesting summary, Leo. Thanks.
likespaphs
some call me brian
unfortunately Paphiopedilum is misspelled in the abstract
I have read the book and thought that it was an interesting read. It is kinda funny how knowing several of the people in the book that I look at them in a different light now.
As for my opinion on the sentencing of Kovach, he had to know that he was breaking the law by bringing it in without CITES. But as stated earlier by other people (and in the book) it was not described and did not really fall under the permit. However it is a Phrag and all Phrags are "protected" by CITES. It is true that CITES needs to actually do something other than create paperwork and perhaps work on actual conservation but it is a law that this country follows and Kovach new that. Regardless plants will always come into the country illegally. I was offered Phrag fischeri before it was described by an importer at the Santa Barbara Orchid Show as well as some of the more recent Vietnamese species just within the last couple years.
Being a legitimate Coral importer I see people trying to cheat the system and paper trail only to get caught, pay the fine and start doing the same thing again. It is somewhat of a joke as far as enforcement. Which brings me to another story from Way-Back-When when birds were legal to import into the US and a certain importer would knock the birds out and stuff hundreds of them into these horrible Grandfather Clocks made in Brazil and ship them up. The birds would not go through quarantine and get out on the market faster so this creep could make more money. Better than half the birds arrived DOA and this person was caught a few times. Got a slap on the wrist and went back to the same thing. I never bought animals from this person but when I heard that this person was now importing and collecting orchids an icy chill went up my spine knowing that thousands of plants were going to be smuggled just like the birds were. Sadly this person ended up with a few plants named after him and will live forever in that regard, too bad they were named after someone doing something illegal.
That being said, considering that PK was brought into the US illegally it would only be right in my mind if the name of the plant was given a name more appropriate and not one glorifying someone know knowingly committed a crime.
Ok, off the soap box,
Tyler
As for my opinion on the sentencing of Kovach, he had to know that he was breaking the law by bringing it in without CITES. But as stated earlier by other people (and in the book) it was not described and did not really fall under the permit. However it is a Phrag and all Phrags are "protected" by CITES. It is true that CITES needs to actually do something other than create paperwork and perhaps work on actual conservation but it is a law that this country follows and Kovach new that. Regardless plants will always come into the country illegally. I was offered Phrag fischeri before it was described by an importer at the Santa Barbara Orchid Show as well as some of the more recent Vietnamese species just within the last couple years.
Being a legitimate Coral importer I see people trying to cheat the system and paper trail only to get caught, pay the fine and start doing the same thing again. It is somewhat of a joke as far as enforcement. Which brings me to another story from Way-Back-When when birds were legal to import into the US and a certain importer would knock the birds out and stuff hundreds of them into these horrible Grandfather Clocks made in Brazil and ship them up. The birds would not go through quarantine and get out on the market faster so this creep could make more money. Better than half the birds arrived DOA and this person was caught a few times. Got a slap on the wrist and went back to the same thing. I never bought animals from this person but when I heard that this person was now importing and collecting orchids an icy chill went up my spine knowing that thousands of plants were going to be smuggled just like the birds were. Sadly this person ended up with a few plants named after him and will live forever in that regard, too bad they were named after someone doing something illegal.
That being said, considering that PK was brought into the US illegally it would only be right in my mind if the name of the plant was given a name more appropriate and not one glorifying someone know knowingly committed a crime.
Ok, off the soap box,
Tyler
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Found this on Kindle, just in case anyone else wants a non-book version. $9.99. Yay!
newbud
Orchid Maniac
I wonder if Kovach would have thought to rush up to Selby from Peru if he was not in the company of the Lee's. I really think they influenced his decision and the urgency of getting it to the gardens to name. I also wonder if Christenson's description would have gone through seeing as how it was based on pictures only not from the actual plant. Kovach may have had the time to do it legitimately. Who knows. Would have been interesting though.
mormodes
Well-Known Member
I think the one facet to the case that wasn't mentioned in the book was the publication of the DNA (for lack of a better word) "fingerprint" for the 3-4 plants allowed to be brought to the USA legally.
Amazing, the effort put into that plant.
Amazing, the effort put into that plant.
L
Leo_5313
Guest
Interesting- and the results were published in Orchids in 2005:
http://www.mendeley.com/research/phragmipedium-kovachii-molecular-systematics-of-a-new-world-orchid/
Systematic naming of plants is perhaps *very* different from, e.g., naming bacteria. To do that, one has to performed whole bunch of DNA and biochemical tests to proof that a new bacterial isolate is different (and explain how different) to its closest, published, isolate; and then, the new isolate description paper has to be reviewed by external peers and by a latin linguist and then the isolate has to be deposited in at least two culture collections (e.g., in different countries). All these have to be done BEFORE a peer-reviewed paper can be published (and the name be accepted). Of course, bacteria cannot be easily identified as "new isolates" via morphology alone.
I came across this- a new genus of orchid was named 'Selbyana' in honor of Selby Gardens in 2010: http://selby.org/about/press/new-genus-orchid-named-selbyana-honor-selby-gardens
And I searched for the taxon keyword 'Phragmipedium' in the Selby's 'Type Specimens Image Collection', http://www.selby.org/research/herbarium, only Phragmipedium besseae came out.
ChrisFL
General Disarray
I'm sorry, I completely disagree. The plant was not a Phrag. It was NOTHING, it was an unidentified plant when the export/import occurred. It needs an published scientific description to have a genus and a species and therefore be protected by CITES.
Oh yeah, I forgot he brought in Maxilarias......:wink:
I see your point and you are correct but thinking that it was a new genus is a real stretch IMHO. What would you have done if you were in his shoes? Just curious.
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