Syn. of purpurescens???

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shakkai

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I have been doing some name looking up to see if any of the seedlings I have actually have registered names (the labels that they came with just list the crosses).

I think I have most figured out, two seem to still be unregistered:

(Armeni White 'Tinto' x S. Gratrix 'Dazzler') and
(Raisin Jack 'Nice One' x argus 'Hilsea')

... and two I still have questions about... I also posted this on the other forum, but didn't get a very definitive response - if such a thing is possible, so I thought I would ask here as well, hoping that I could get answers or even opinions from the 'experts'!

The two plants in question are listed as crosses involving Paph.purpurescens.

One is (purpurescens ‘Pink Edge’ x charlesworthii ‘Wubben’) which is listed as Tinfire if I take purpurescens as a syn. of virens - or what seems to be given as javanicum var. virens, but is not listed under just javanicum.

The one I am really struggling with is (purpurescens x venustum var. pardinum) - now some sources just say that purpurescens is a syn. of javanicum, others say it is specifically javanicum var. virens which, to make things more confusing, seems to just be Paph. virens for registrations.

So, I guess I am really asking what is the correct syn. of purpurescens? Is it simply javanicum? If so, then the above cross is Schrat. However, if the purpurescens is actaully javanicum var. virens (or, rather, just virens) then the above cross is Venus Legend.

So, what is my little seedling???
 

SlipperKing

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At one time Paph primulinum var. purpurescens was called Paph purpurescens and you are correct purpurescens is syn with virens. So, depending on what your hybrids look like it could come from either one of these species. Can you post PICs of these two hybrids?
 

shakkai

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Alas, the plants are seedlings that are at least a year or more away from flowering. Unless there is something that we can tell from the leaves?

Looks like I will need to go back to the breeder and ask about the specific plant(s) used.
 

Leo Schordje

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I think your safe bet is to use the Paph virens registrations. They specifically refer to the same race of the species javanicum. Paph purpurescens is an old trade name (Ray Rands era) for the species described earlier as Paph virens, later reduced by Cribb to Paph javanicum var. virens. Paph javanicum var javanicum comes from the island of Java, Paph virens comes from neighboring Sumatra. There are consistient but relatively minor difference in leaf patterns between the two races. Flower differences are very minor, I don't think I could tell them apart consistiently by flower. I like the leaf patterns of the javanicum better, the slightly bolder purple edge of the Paph virens flower is a touch stronger than in Paph javanicum. But if you don't have a bunch together correctly labeled of the two groups you would be hard pressed to assign a single plant to one taxon or the other. So Cribb may be right in lumping javanicum and virens together.

SlipperKing - the species name as used in the 1970's & 1980's, Paph purpurescens has nothing to do with the varieties of primulinum. Entirely different species. Because Paph virens was used first for the same plant that was re-described as purpurescens, the name purpurescens is invalid. It is also a confusing name as it has been used many times.
 

shakkai

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Leo, Thanks very much! Your background clears up a lot of my confusion.

So (purpurescens ‘Pink Edge’ x charlesworthii ‘Wubben’) would be Tinfire; and
(purpurescens x venustum var. pardinum) would be Venus Legend - and not Schrat which is javanicum x venustum!
 

Leo Schordje

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Leo, Thanks very much! Your background clears up a lot of my confusion.

So (purpurescens ‘Pink Edge’ x charlesworthii ‘Wubben’) would be Tinfire; and
(purpurescens x venustum var. pardinum) would be Venus Legend - and not Schrat which is javanicum x venustum!
Yes, that is the way I would do it. I would also not get to concerned, if an AOS judge or someone else insists on calling your plants by the names from the javanicum registration, but for your own records & tags I would use the names based on the virens registration.

To Quote the Bard; "That which we call a rose, by any other word would smell as sweet?"

Or in this case "that which we call purpurescens, by any other word is really just a mostly green flower, virens."
 

shakkai

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Or in this case "that which we call purpurescens, by any other word is really just a mostly green flower, virens."
Wonderful! I think I will write that on the back of the tags!

I will be patiently (NOT!) waiting to see the flowers on these.

Also, I really like your signature quote. Working in IT, I see 'supporting' statistics all of the time!
 

Lance Birk

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Just to keep he record straight.

P. javanicum comes from Java. P. virens comes from Mt. Kinabalu in Sabah, Malaysia and not Sumatra at the other end of Indonesia. They are obviously separate species which can readily be determined when viewed side-by-side. You can see full color photos in my grower's manual and note the differences.

Not only are the flowers distinctly different, but the foliage is as well and they are easily separated when not in bloom.

P. purpurescens is an old name ( I forget from where it originated) that Dr. Fowlie re-instated in the Orchid Digest. He even speculated that it was a 'natural hybrid' with P. dayanum, a product of introgressive hybridization. I disagreed with him then, and I disagree with Phil Cribb now about virens vs javanicum. I have collected P. virens and the one parent of your cross labeled 'Pink Edge' is a fitting description of the species' petal tips.

Unfortunately, the name purpurescens has also been used (illegally and carelessly) to describe the variety of P. primulinum, especially when used in hybridizing, and/or when carelessly written on name tags by some people.

I say your plant can only be correctly labeled when and if you get good scoop from the hybridizer about both the parents. I myself, would like to actually see them.
 

Leo Schordje

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Oops - my apologies Lance, I was writing from work (between testing samples) and did not look up the origin of virens. I should have looked it up before typing.
Leo
 

Lance Birk

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Hey Leo........

Dontcha just hate it when t bites you in the ass?

LB
 

Leo Schordje

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:eek: Yeah, I should just bring my copy of your book, and Guido Braem's last book to work and leave it there. As it turns out, that is the only place where I have time to 'be an expert'. I drop in on the forums while waiting for test results. At home I rarely have time to sit and noodle in front of the computer.
Leo
 
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