Superbiens var curtisii, Superbiens var. superbiens superbiens var .???

Discussion in 'Taxonomy' started by Bjorn, Jul 15, 2016.

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  1. Jul 15, 2016 #1

    Bjorn

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    I have a small collection of P. superbiens of different origin, but have a feeling that most of them are wild-collected. I do not know for scertain though. Several of them have come into my custody under fake names, and some as superbiens.
    The first one was supposed to be a sangii, but turned out to be the "original superbiens" here it is, this year blooming(now)
    [​IMG]
    together With a "normal"(right) superbiens (last year)
    [​IMG]

    The leaves of these two are quite similar(the "normal" in front
    [​IMG]

    so , seems to have a bit narrower leaves but except for that no difference.
    Then there was this mysterious plant that also came as a sangii but from another source
    [​IMG]
    I had an enquiry in another thread
    http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39785
    and among the suggestions were Erics superbiens var. curtisii.
    Now it flowers;
    [​IMG]

    here are the leaves once again
    [​IMG]
    Now they seems to have greened up and is it var. curtisii we have in front of us?
    I think it was Leo that stated inb another thread that leaves were not a conservative trait when identifying paphs, and this should be one example that they may change over time.

    Ok, superbiens , curtisii and the "original" superbiens, and then another one excuse the bad photo;
    [​IMG]

    It is not easily seen from the photo but the petals are not as reflexed as expected for a superbiens and the coloration is more green, similar to the "original" one as it was depicted in the early paintings. more about that in this thread:
    http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13058
    The leaves are normal superbiens. The petals do reflex, but then they are green... could this be anb Intermediate variety, or are they all one variety?
    What are Your comments guys?
     
  2. Jul 15, 2016 #2

    NYEric

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    the leaves in the back right side are similar to those of superbiens v. curtsii. I am so jealous that you have an example of the original superbiens. If you ever propagate it.... :)
     
  3. Jul 15, 2016 #3

    Happypaphy7

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    I thought that is sangii??

    Anyways, this topic is just full of confusion and mystery.
    I don't think anyone has the answer.

    Also, the "original" superbiens, especially one with petals that are not downswept look so much like common hybrids that I used to see, like boxfull!!! They were all heavily "curtisii" and sukhakulii.
    Not saying that's what yours is, but saying it looks like it.

    I have two in bloom and one opening up, all bought as curtisii.
    will post pictures once the last one opens up fully.
    They are all basically disappointment to me as I was looking for very dark chocolate flowers.
     
  4. Jul 15, 2016 #4

    Bjorn

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    Eric, those are the leaves of the special superbiens;)
    Happy, you might be right, always possible, we will probably never know, but I think it is the real stuff. The variety emerged in Europe, and was identified as the original superbiens in a publication by Holger Perner. Think it was in OrchideenJournal. In German though......
     
  5. Jul 15, 2016 #5

    Happypaphy7

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    Is that a website or paper?
    I can read German.
     
  6. Jul 16, 2016 #6

    paphioboy

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    I'll take one of each please :D Love them all despite the confusion..
     
  7. Jul 16, 2016 #7

    abax

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    Interesting. I like all the foliage, but not any of the flowers
    particularly. However, this could be due to my failure at
    growing superbiens well.
     
  8. Jul 16, 2016 #8

    Bjorn

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    Well, the foliage is more permanent than the flowers....even if superbiens flowers are long-lasting.....

    Orchideenjournal is hard to get, I have just read excerpts of that paper myself.

    Eric, the plant had seeds last year that was conveyed to Hilmar Bauch of Asendorf. He used to have the type as well before and he identified it when he saw it. So perhaps he will offer that superbiens in a few years time?

    I am getting confused myself, seems that I must re-assess my stock, regarding what is superbiens and what is curtisii, seems that I never get it right...Eric, once more; which is which, is it the greyish leaves that are curtisii and the green that are superbiens, or was it opposite?:rollhappy:
     
  9. Jul 16, 2016 #9

    NYEric

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    I'm stuck posting from a phone. If you search posts of superbiens v. curtsii by me you will see the foliage it is silvery green with regularly spaced spots and usually wide.
     
  10. Jul 16, 2016 #10

    Happypaphy7

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    Bjorn-

    didn't you say that silvery great leaves turned green?
    If that's the case, I don't think going by the leaves is the sure way to distinguish these two, either.

    Also, I was once at a nursery with lots of medium sized seedlings of curtisii that came from the same flask. The leaves were not uniform in color/pattern.
     
  11. Jul 16, 2016 #11

    JAB

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    You could always reference a professionals book such as Prof guido Braem.
     
  12. Jul 16, 2016 #12

    Happypaphy7

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    So what does that say??
     
  13. Jul 17, 2016 #13

    NYEric

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    Cribb says, "curtsii....can be distinguished by its petals which are narrower and shorter than the typical variety the petals always being shorter than the lip."
     
  14. Jul 17, 2016 #14

    Happypaphy7

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    But those first parts where he says narrower and shorter means nothing.
    All relative and too vague.
    Plus, they all tend to have curled petals, so..
     
  15. Jul 18, 2016 #15

    Bjorn

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    Tricky question, have to check some older literature I guess. Not that it matters too much, in my opinion they are all superbiens (or was it curtisii????)
     
  16. Jul 18, 2016 #16

    Happypaphy7

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    I think they are all the same basically as well, whatever they are, no idea!
     
  17. Jul 20, 2016 #17

    Bjorn

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    Thanks a lot, saw your post on curtisii, seems that I had it wrong, thinking superbiens was curtisii and vice versa.
     
  18. Jul 21, 2016 #18

    Stone

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    Great growing Bjorn! What temps do you grow these at?
     
  19. Jul 22, 2016 #19

    Bjorn

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    moderately warm (actually temperate) Winter 15-25C, summer 18-30C
     
  20. Aug 21, 2016 #20

    Rick

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    Bjorn

    Do you think the "sangi" import could be a clue to the collection site or just to throw off people from knowing where it actually came from?


    At least in Birk's book both superbiens and curtisii are both from Sumatra, while sangii is listed from Palu and Sulawesi (I've also heard Ambon island).

    The geography of slipper systematics is potentially helpful in recognizing species, but it certainly is full of fraudulent data too.
     

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