Species Versus Hybrids?

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at times people who like species have had some reference in their past to nature, perennials and native plants, or have spent lots of time outdoors in their youth (like me). others who may not have had any background in plants and species etc from outdoors or other experiences just like what they see looks 'nice'. many species don't necessarily look 'pretty', but many who grow botanical plants/orchids like them because of their diversity and such. hybridizing many of the botanical orchids wouldn't really be an improvement on many of them. people who have been used to seeing things as natural species and such have a comfort level with plants in that manner and look to acquire orchids in the same fashion

since someone mentioned alcohol in reference to 'different things/types', there is a comparison with orchids that might be helpful; some people like blended whiskey, tequila, beer or scotch, so that things taste 'uniform', so there aren't any surprises in the quality or taste. others prefer the difference that a different distiller can bring to the final product, or the unique characteristics that a small brewer can bring to the product. variety is the spice of life in these cases, and the other camp just doesn't want any surprises and have everything be generally mediocre (though there are exceptions ;) )
 
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To be honest, I completely disagree with you Charles. I love nature but I like hybrid orchids. I like that someone has taken their time to try a make something, hopefully different then both parents. Many paph hybrids can actually vary a lot in a cross. Just look at paphreek's (Ross) post about cross variation. It shows a group of frist blooming paphs from a cross. Everyone looks different.

I'm sure that some grow hybrids just because they think they look "pretty", but isn't that the reason most of us have and grow orchids, because they look "nice".

I don't mean to sound rude but I hate general statements, especially when they put me in a presumed category.
 
I don't mean to sound rude but I hate general statements, especially when they put me in a presumed category.

:) to be fair, it is impossible to do other than make general statements on an open forum, unless you end up writing a manuscript. also you must make note of my ;) at the end, which means that in general a statement may be taken with a grain of salt :rollhappy:

basically I made my statement with the understanding that there are species (macs) people and hybrid (pc) people, and that each has their own preferences, and that's just fine. relax and enjoy the orchids
 
The reality of having a "save the species" plant is rare and not very likely. I only know one person who has been in a similar situation. I prefer hybrid plants for the diversity and improvements over the species such as vigor, etc.

I know it probably won't happen with me but it just might. Who knows how much worse the world could get. The Greater Omaha Orchid Society and Henry Doorly Zoo helped save a species, Cypripedium candidum. It was in the county just west of here in Platte county, Nebraska.

I fit Charles explaining. I spent and still spend most of my life outside and live on a farm surrounded by ponds and woods and I love to see things natural and completely undisturbed and untouched by man. I'd let the lawn go "natural" if I could. Most farmers around here are tearing out trees, terraces, ditches, ect. and are farming 2 feet from the road and most people hate to see that, including me. There are no virgin prairies around here that I know of. I wish I could see this state and the whole country when it was "natural and untouched."
 
there are species (macs) people and hybrid (pc) people, and that each has their own preferences
;)or there are species (pc) people and hybrid (mac) people:poke:

Doing a check of my orchids, I have about a 1/3rd species, 1/3rd primaries, and the rest are hybrids. Don't know if I have a preference, but if it calls to me, I will try to grow it.
 
Theresa and Bill have stated much of how I feel about Paphs. I love species and breed them when I feel I have decent stud plants, but hybrids call to my artist side, attempting to make a new and beautiful creation. To push the analogy further, species and hybrid parents become the colors and form combined on my canvas. It allows me the joy of creation.
 
I know it probably won't happen with me but it just might. Who knows how much worse the world could get.

It can always get worse.. :( Actually, it's getting so bad I worry about humans surviving, much less species of plants. Unfortunately we are all related and in it together! :eek:

To push the analogy further, species and hybrid parents become the colors and form combined on my canvas. It allows me the joy of creation.

So deep, Man!! :)
 
Theresa and Bill have stated much of how I feel about Paphs. I love species and breed them when I feel I have decent stud plants, but hybrids call to my artist side, attempting to make a new and beautiful creation. To push the analogy further, species and hybrid parents become the colors and form combined on my canvas. It allows me the joy of creation.

that is very cool. to be completely honest, though I explain my interest in collecting species mostly, there are other very large factors at work. I do like looking at many hybrids, especially the cattleya alliance, and there are very many nice hybrids out there, and like all things there are 'good' species and hybrids and 'bad' ones... since I don't have a greenhouse, extra time and especially money, I don't buy most of the vast selection of hybrids that are out there, so I just enjoy looking at them here :) . it's also easier for me to personally keep track of what certain species look like and know what they and their culture are, and mostly the species stay the same while there are always more and more and more hybrids, of which I could never keep track of all the names and images :crazy: (especially all of the wild and crazy intergeneric hybrid names)
 
I have never bought a hybrid or a non-multi paph. The only hybrid I own is a primary hybrid (rothschildianum x gigantifolium). This was a present from the seller. I got it as tiny plant and this cross was not registred at this time.
My goal is to get all multifloral paphs, minimum two of each species. I almost have them all, but plants like Paph intaniae and ooii and album paphs like stonei album are still missing...
 
It can always get worse.. :( Actually, it's getting so bad I worry about humans surviving, much less species of plants. Unfortunately we are all related and in it together! :eek:

Who care about humans surviving, as long as the plants do! :rollhappy:
 
I love them all too but only have a small grwoing space under a 4' 4 tube T5 light system so I mainly have species.
 
So hide them among the other plants. everyone else here does that! :evil:

:rollhappy: I have a fond memory of friend, sometimes I'd be visiting, and a box of new orchids would arrive. Her husband would call from the other room to ask her; "How many orchids do you have now Dear?" and she would always answer; "Oh, only about 200, these make it 204". When she passed her greenhouse had well over 2000 plants in it. Her husband was stunned, he actually had been believing her! (well, he knew it was more than 200, but he never got around to seriously looking at her collection).
 
My goal is to get all multifloral paphs, minimum two of each species. I almost have them all, but plants like Paph intaniae and ooii and album paphs like stonei album are still missing...

pardon for the derailing but curious on what happened to the intaniae you posted a awhile back? Did it flower and turned out mislabelled?
 
I'm with Ross, Theresa and the others who really enjoy a mix of species and hybrids. The art of hybridizing, is a pleasure in of itself, almost separate from growing orchids. When I look at the orchid seed pods I have set and successfully produced seedlings from, about 1/3 were species propagation. About 2/3 were hybrids, mostly Paph and Phrags, though the first hybrid I made made and registered was an Odontocidium, though today I think it is a Lembocidium, or maybe a Gomeziocidium. What ever. Odcdm Leo Bosshart (Odm bictoniense x Onc. hastatum)

I think I have registered a dozen or so hybrids, but I more often than not I remake hybrids that don't seem to be around any more and intrigue me, usually with the artist's pallet in mind.

I wish those of you who disdain the complex Paphs, would really make the effort to get to see some good complexes that are well grown. Until I saw Wharton Sincler's collection of complexes, I was not impressed with them. Then I saw what a Paph Hellas 'Westonbirt' FCC/RHS can do when well grown. It is still today one imposing flower. Wharton's Hellas was a 5 growth plant that needed a one gallon nursery can to hold it. It was BIG. When grown that well the flowers are spectacular. By visiting Klehm's, I got an appreciation on how rare the 'great' complex Paphs really are. When you see several dozen complex seedlings from the same cross all in bloom you realize that only one in a hundred manages to get both a good color combo and good form and good presentation. So many have flaws that while they may be enjoyable, the flaws definitely knock them out of the show circuit. The high price of a division of an awarded complex is well worth it once you see the amount of composting of the inferior that has to be done. Complex Paphs definitely show that even in hybrids, culture is very important to see the full potential of a flower.

So basically "I like 'em all", species and hybrids.
 
ex situ conservation

Toward Orchid Boy's comment about our orchid collections being 'living museums' and 'miniature arks' preserving a gene bank for future re-introduction back into the wild. I used to think this way, that our collections, or more specifically MY collection was an 'ark'.

Time proved to me how wrong this thought is. No collection, private or public is a reliable permanent ark. These collections are ephemeral. Everyone screws up and eventually looses most of their plants to disease or accident over time. Usually we loose them one or two at a time, so we often are not conscious of just how poor a preservation job we are doing. I have owned thousands maybe even more than ten thousand orchids over the last 40 years. (given time, if you buy in 200 or 300 orchids a year, over 40 years, it adds up) Currently my collection is some 1300 plants in my inventory. Of all these plants I bought, at least 1/3 were species, yet I only have at best 50 plants that I have kept alive for more than 25 years. The rest perished for one reason or another. After you kill a couple really rare plants, once you are able to stop weeping, you realize that the only way to preserve these species long term is to make sure there is a healthy population in their native habitat. Habitat preservation is the only long term preservation. Eric Christiansen and I argued about this for a long time and it was he who pointed out how few of my plants actually survived my care for more than 10 years. Even less for more than 25 years. I was struck ill back in 2009 and lost many, many Phrags while I was ill. It is surprising what survives and what doesn't. Murphy's Law says the rare stuff dies first. And it is true. Public collections are just as bad as private collections, often worse. I donated many a rare plant to a conservatory. When I visited after 3 changes of curators in 5 years, only one of the 100 or so plants was left. And it was a common one. (the Odm bictoniense I made my first hybrid with).

As an inferior 2nd best option, if you end up with a 'next to the Last of the Mohicans', a truly rare plant, if you want to preserve it, you must as quickly as is safe to do try to propagate it. Some of my seed crosses were to spread around rare plants. Your plant might not survive, but if enough progeny are out there, somebody might have some left.

Ten-man and I have traded back and for a rot prone wild collected Lycaste, Lycaste deppei var punctitissimum, he got a division from me 15 or more years ago. Periodically my division would rot and die, he'd be able to give me a piece of the original. Then his would rot and die and I would give him a piece back in return. Any time there is only one piece left we collectively get nervous. So far timing hasn't been good for producing a selfing for seed. Key is, if you don't spread the rare stuff around it is doomed.

You can argue with me on this, but show me how many plants have survived, and I will point out how many have been lost to cultivation. Paph sanderianum was lost to cultivation long enough that many were beginning to think the original 19th century water colors were a hoax to promote Sander's firm. Most of the Antique Paphs are hybrids, with the benefit of hybrid vigor, some of them have survived. A much smaller number of species have survived. Much smaller.

Work toward preserving and restoring habitat, it is the only way. And, start at home. In Illinois we have less than 2000 acres of forest that is truly old growth, never been logged or harvested forest. The single largest tracts are not much more than 200 acres each. I believe the acreage of never plowed prairie for Illinois is less than 10,000 acres. This is in a state that is millions of acres in area. That IS NOT maintaining sustainable healthy habitats. Some of these old growth forest tracts do not even have protected status, and could be logged in the future. Before we dance around telling the developing nations they have to preserve their rain forests, we should really put some effort in saving our own.

So DON'T buy an orchid and keep it thinking "I'm helping preserving the species", that is a delusion. Especially wild collected plants, you are behaving badly purchasing them. BUT DO pick up that rare orchid up knowing that if it has any chance at all surviving 'ex situ' you need to grow it well and propagate it. You can try, but to think the 'ex situ' captive population is a long term viable solution is wrong. I never import species unless I am certain they are seed propagated, I have purchased imported plants once they were already here in country. I do my best to propagate the rare stuff. I don't for a minute think this is being 'ecologically responsible'. As my penance for bad behavior, collecting rare plants, I volunteer with local prairie preservation group, help with the clean ups and such. Also occasionally donate money to certain projects, especially if their ratio of money vs overhead is good, where the bulk of the money goes to the project and not to pay administrator salaries.

Okay now I shall step off my soap box. Done now. :)
 
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