Piping Rock new owner

[Ray]

Interesting observations, Frank.

So here's another tidbit to consider, relating to the relative popularity/efficacy of information sources: The AOS has tens of thousands of members (certainly fewer than a while back) and they all get the magazine.

For several years, I ran monthly ads in the magazine, offering a discount for using a particular code. That code was never used. I discontinued the adds a while ago.

Last year, the AOS came up with the AOS Marketplace that, by subscribing as a partner, is a form of online advertising, allows the issuance of a coupon code, the offer of $30 off a $100 purchase if you subscribe for 2 years, and participation in the "Dealwire" email campaign to offer specials to AOS members.

In one year of participation, 43 orders utilized the discount code, 20 individuals used the $30-off voucher on orders averaging $215, and each of my four Dealwire offerings netted more than an average month's sales in one or two days.

 

[southernbelle]

Interesting Frank and makes total sense.

 

[Roth]

Frank is right as well, though it is another reason for the market collapse.

This said, wild collected plants straight out of Asia or South America delivered to US or EU orchid show was and is widely accepted, not only Paphiopedilum. This year, there was a large German orchid exhibition that was loaded with this kind of plants.

But if a local grower from the US or EU has wild collected parents, or seedlings of such plants, he is kind of immediately destroyed and shunned. Foreign entities, or swappers that just get wild plants and sell them havvea better reputation and make much more profit without risks than local breeders or growers.

The kovachii story was very shady to say the least, but it was only one of many stories. The seized sanderianum and gigantifolium in Hawaii, followed by a hunt for the already sold plants and their progeny, including their hybrids, was somehting quite crazy too.

The background of that interesting story was that the plants were legally exported and imported, absolutely divisions of long time cultivated plants, with CITES etc... but their owner was scared to death by both the lobbies and the authorities, the competition turned informant, so they decided to 'admit' the plants were not legal, and not go to the court. The CITES was subsequently canceled both for sanderianum, and the only possible legal gigantifolium in the US. It took years before gigantifolium was legally available in the US, with CITES, from Taiwan... who already had an advantage.

As for the breeding, it is clear too that over the last years, many important collections died or were fully exported to Taiwan or Japan, so it would be very difficult to restart a full US or EU breeding program today. People are sentenced to buy plants bred in Taiwan or Thailand, or precultivated wild plants from overseas, clearly. The volume of the market and the demand for species and hybrids in the US or Europe does not justify a full scale breeding program as of now in many fields, or just 1 or 2 nurseries doing them for the entire local markets.

The pro prices as well for many plants are as well way too low and making the local production not profitable. Recently, rothschildianum blooming size were offered in Taiwan for 20us, maybe the lookalike hybrids, but huge plants, though very average/low quality flowers, which does not matter, as they are 'rothschildianum' It would cost way more to grow a seedling in the US from flask, let alone buy the motherplants. It is one out of many examples.

 

[Heather]

Frank….there it is, that was the info I was looking for, as I figured it was really kovachii at the root of the phrag availability today…

Although all of this is great info for anyone interested in the trends over the years. Thank you, Roth, for adding your wealth of knowledge as well.

 

[My Green Pets]

What about Sunset Valley Orchids? His offerings are so widely anticipated that there are "What did you get?" threads on Orchidboard each time a new list is published.

On a different note, Nepenthes are where it's at, have you seen the prices for tiny seedlings? Hundreds of dollars each and buyers are ravenous. Nurseries like Carnivero are sold out just days after new stock arrives.

 

[PeteM]

What about Sunset Valley Orchids? His offerings are so widely anticipated that there are "What did you get?" threads on Orchidboard each time a new list is published.

On a different note, Nepenthes are where it's at, have you seen the prices for tiny seedlings? Hundreds of dollars each and buyers are ravenous. Nurseries like Carnivero are sold out just days after new stock arrives.

Nepenthes are a slippery slope, that WIRED article late last year was eye opening. I had no clue people were crazy for them.

 

[littlefrog]

Tyler,
It’s not dying! There are a couple of us youngsters who are opening nurseries (though we are few and far between). I’ve been meaning to introduce myself here for some time, and I reckon I’ll make a separate post about it once the website is fully fleshed out, but my name is Dennis and I run a nursery out of Columbus OH called Flask & Flora. My goal has been to revitalize orchid interest in the midst of the aroid/tropicals insanity among younger growers and its so far, so good! My passion is in Catt species, Paphs, and Oncidiums (and I find myself accidentally growing Pleurothallids of all types, too). I am always on the lookout for select plants, so if you older experienced guys ever need to offload nice ones…I will gladly be your species dumpster

-Dennis

Dennis is good people and a joy to do a show with. Buy more plants from him and the other two or three new guys. I used to be a new guy, but that was 35 years ago so now I'm the old grumpy veteran.

 

[Roth]

Nepenthes are a slippery slope, that WIRED article late last year was eye opening. I had no clue people were crazy for them.

They are pretty much the new Paphiopedilum. I grow quite a few of the species including in the lab. There are people willing to pay a few hundreds us for straight out of flasks 3-4cm plants.

There are 2 reasons, many sellers don't know how to grow them fast and well, with 2-3 exceptions. Second, many sellers are too greedy, and can make a few hundreds us a plantlet ouf of flask, with a market of a couple hundreds per species.

In common with the orchid world, there is a lot of poor lab work, a lot of mutations ( which explains some 'hard to grow' seedlings), and poor culture before selling to the end customer... Quite a lot of fake plants, hybrids sold as species, as well too.

At a point it will become more rational, and I am sure hobbyists will only buy good, nice and strong plants, but it will take a time.

 

[Duck Slipper]

Just a few years ago, you could buy quite a few different species...I wanted a Nepenthe's hamata, different sizes were available. Now very hard to get, expensive and small, if you can find one.

 

[My Green Pets]

Nepenthes are a slippery slope, that WIRED article late last year was eye opening. I had no clue people were crazy for them.

Great article, thank you for sharing. Someone gave me 4 seedlings a few months ago and I've already bought two more.

 

[tnyr5]

Nepenthes. Are. WEEDS.
I'm sure some are slower than mine, but I can't imagine a single one taking more than two years to hit 6in leafspan.
This is a (platychila x burbidgeae) x platychila. Someone gave me seeds to germinate in vitro just for fun. The plant in the photo is 10 months from germination. Others are smaller but only because I separated one out and actually paid attention to it, versus the others which were completely ignored (all shoved into one small pot and watered when I remembered lol).

 

[Roth]

Nepenthes. Are. WEEDS.
I'm sure some are slower than mine, but I can't imagine a single one taking more than two years to hit 6in leafspan.

Same problem as Paphs some years ago, the legend says nepenthes can't stand of any fertilizer, so they are starving for years in culture, including by commercial growers... and many die along the way of nutritent deficiencies.

 

[Ray]

FWIW, a few years back I acquired a N. X ventrata, put it in a basket of sphagnum and stuck it out on my deck.

Super hot, super humid, bright sun, and apparently enough bugs that I never fertilized it. The damned thing grew like a weed. It was unhappy with the cooler, dry winters indoors and I lost a lot of pitchers, so I just hacked it back before putting it outside in spring, and it exploded again. That single growth, originally in a 3” pot, typically had 8 or 9 vines at least 4’ long by, the end of a summer.

I repeated the process 4 years and got fed up and threw it away….

 

[tnyr5]

Only sensible thing to do with ventrata lol

 

[cpmaniac]

Nepenthes. Are. WEEDS.
I'm sure some are slower than mine, but I can't imagine a single one taking more than two years to hit 6in leafspan.
This is a (platychila x burbidgeae) x platychila. Someone gave me seeds to germinate in vitro just for fun. The plant in the photo is 10 months from germination. Others are smaller but only because I separated one out and actually paid attention to it, versus the others which were completely ignored (all shoved into one small pot and watered when I remembered lol). View attachment 41168

Nice job. Many of them grow quickly, but even with fertilizer, some highland species grow much slower than hybrids or lowland species.

 

[tnyr5]

Oh I don't doubt it. They're too damn expensive to use for experiments, though.

 

[Tom Reddick]

While the orchid industry may have been in slow decline, what kicked the business over the cliff in the United States was Phrag. kovachii and what happened to Selby and George Norris. Not sure how many of you were in touch with George at the time and the people he dealt with. That singular situation led to a few things in the domestic (US) orchid business and hobby trade.

Well said Frank. This dark chapter in the modern history of Paphiopedilums is one I had buried deep in my mind, and I did not even think on it until I read your post tonight.

I did not know George Norris- but that story is a cautionary tale about knowing a business and its risks fully before diving in, as well as the wisdom of putting your financial security on the line to provide bail or other financial support for people you thought would remain your friends at a time when everyone is forced to look out for themselves.

This is not intended as a criticism against Mr. Norris- everything I have ever heard suggested his intentions were honorable, but for the benefit of future dealers in orchids in general this is a good story to research and understand well. Enforcement in this area is rarely directed at things like orchids, but these agencies are used to dealing with very dangerous people trafficking in merchandise at a dollar level worth killing for- and if you get caught in the crosshairs without having pristine documentation, you can expect a terrifying and very expensive experience.

The only thing I would add to your impact statement Frank is that I think these events were also a big part of the acceleration in the decline of the importance of the AOS. As you noted, consistent with history the game of being a leading player in the orchid world is fraught with jealousy and a complete lack of loyalty to the community at large. I think my own comments stand as a very high level reason for long term declines, but the acceleration of the decline- with a disproportionately high impact from more serious growers and vendor- very much came into play for the reasons you have laid out.

The worst of this is that the scale and intensity of the many actions taken around that time were largely the result of fellow growers who had done as bad or worse turning snitch on their competitors to either save their own skins or try and settle long held grievances and turf wars. The AOS and other organizations were wise to take a neutral stance, but unfortunately the mere continuing recognition of certain figures as experts constituted taking sides as it was not just orchid vendors who willingly dived into this abysmal game. As much as I was angered at the AOS for that ridiculous visitor center in the middle of nowhere that nearly collapsed the organization financially, it was the continued publication and recognition of certain authority figures who had been key players in the destruction of the reputation and lives of many orchid breeders and hybridizers over the importation, selling and breeding of Paphs and Phrags that was truly unforgiveable.

 

[FrankRC]

Well said Frank. This dark chapter in the modern history of Paphiopedilums is one I had buried deep in my mind, and I did not even think on it until I read your post tonight.

I did not know George Norris- but that story is a cautionary tale about knowing a business and its risks fully before diving in, as well as the wisdom of putting your financial security on the line to provide bail or other financial support for people you thought would remain your friends at a time when everyone is forced to look out for themselves.

This is not intended as a criticism against Mr. Norris- everything I have ever heard suggested his intentions were honorable, but for the benefit of future dealers in orchids in general this is a good story to research and understand well. Enforcement in this area is rarely directed at things like orchids, but these agencies are used to dealing with very dangerous people trafficking in merchandise at a dollar level worth killing for- and if you get caught in the crosshairs without having pristine documentation, you can expect a terrifying and very expensive experience.

The only thing I would add to your impact statement Frank is that I think these events were also a big part of the acceleration in the decline of the importance of the AOS. As you noted, consistent with history the game of being a leading player in the orchid world is fraught with jealousy and a complete lack of loyalty to the community at large. I think my own comments stand as a very high level reason for long term declines, but the acceleration of the decline- with a disproportionately high impact from more serious growers and vendor- very much came into play for the reasons you have laid out.

The worst of this is that the scale and intensity of the many actions taken around that time were largely the result of fellow growers who had done as bad or worse turning snitch on their competitors to either save their own skins or try and settle long held grievances and turf wars. The AOS and other organizations were wise to take a neutral stance, but unfortunately the mere continuing recognition of certain figures as experts constituted taking sides as it was not just orchid vendors who willingly dived into this abysmal game. As much as I was angered at the AOS for that ridiculous visitor center in the middle of nowhere that nearly collapsed the organization financially, it was the continued publication and recognition of certain authority figures who had been key players in the destruction of the reputation and lives of many orchid breeders and hybridizers over the importation, selling and breeding of Paphs and Phrags that was truly unforgiveable.

Very well said and I agree. That aside, I do encourage everyone to read up on that unsavory part of slipper orchid history. There is a lot to learn there.

 

[PeteM]

Very well said and I agree. That aside, I do encourage everyone to read up on that unsavory part of slipper orchid history. There is a lot to learn there.

The Scent of Scandal: Greed, Betrayal, and the World's Most Beautiful Orchid.

Is the book I would recommend reading for those new to this topic. The focus is on kovachii, but the book also reviews the other paph and Phrag incident surrounding Norris.

It was amazing to me how much ‘smaller’ my orchid world became as many of the growers who I have visited their nursery, purchased plants from online, listened to one of their presentations or sat next to at a meeting were mentioned by name in the book. It’s a small orchid world after all.

Additionally, this forum is mentioned directly in the book and I believe posts were quoted directly. I did go back and dig some of the posts up just to see how much history is stored in our threads.

 

[Ray]

I was a friend of George’s. I used to travel to Houston on business a lot and had dinner with them from time to time.

I honestly cannot say if he intended to skirt the law or if it was really just a labeling mistake on the export end of the transaction, but the authorities went out of their way to use him to set an example, making a huge amount of damage to his health.