Phrag Lovely Lynne 4n x sib blooming thread

[Ozpaph]

wow

 

[monocotman]

Terry, the first couple of Lovely Lynnes were nothing to do with this batch and from a different source to Mike Tibbs. They came as small seedlings from Elite Orchids In the Uk, probably from a cross between a Fritz and Peruflora. Neither appeared to be polyploid. I cannot remember when they arrived whether they came described as Lovely Lynne or the parents of the cross.
The current crop of Lovely Lynne that I’m blooming out came from Mike and were described as a sib cross between two tetraploid parents. The photos of the two parents in flower showed large flat blooms and certainly suggested that they could be 4n. I have no confirmation that they are. Just how Mike obtained the parental material I do not know. Treating a flask of Fritz x peruflora seeds would be the easiest way of doing it.
We know from the post about the suspected tetraploid Fritz found by the Fischers that they stand out in a population of diploids so it should have been easy to spot them in a blooming population.

 

[monocotman]

Terry, We already knew that polyploid forms of Fritz were way better than the diploids. When Lovely Lynne started to bloom out online it was also clear that this cross was exceptional. So when I saw an offering of a sib cross of tetraploid LLs it was a bit of a no brainier!

 

[terryros]

Terry, We already knew that polyploid forms of Fritz were way better than the diploids. When Lovely Lynne started to bloom out online it was also clear that this cross was exceptional. So when I saw an offering of a sib cross of tetraploid LLs it was a bit of a no brainier!

Absolutely. I wonder if the cross produced a large number of seedlings or just a small number.

 

[monocotman]

There were enough flasks for them to be offered for a few months on his web site.

 

[MichaelTibbs]

Pete,
you ought to get in touch with Mike Tibbs at the Exotic plant company.
Nobody I know is selling this cross in the USA at present but maybe a flask or two made it over there?
David

I’m sorry but we sold our entire stock of Phragmipedium hybrids a year ago We still have kovachii siblings and besseae siblings

 

[MichaelTibbs]

David, when you first posted about Lovely Lynne, it was a single plant that was not from this group of seedlings, is that correct? Lovely Lynne wasn't registered by Michael Tibbs until 2020 so I am thinking you got your first plant before registration? Were you told that original plant was tetraploid or is it only this group of seedlings that was noted as tetraploid?

I suspect that there was chemical conversion in there somewhere to get the tetraploidy but I am not sure at what stage.

The flasks I offered were sibling crosses of two colchine treated plants. So there was a good chance of nice 4N seedlings from the cross but also a few hexaploid seedlings. I have seen quite a few exceptional seedlings from this crossing from customers who purchased the flasks

 

[terryros]

The flasks I offered were sibling crosses of two colchine treated plants. So there was a good chance of nice 4N seedlings from the cross but also a few hexaploid seedlings. I have seen quite a few exceptional seedlings from this crossing from customers who purchased the flasks

Thanks for the information. It all fits with the great flowers.

 

[sergeharvey]

Out of curiosity...for the LL, the primary cross is FS x PCA and the sib cross, from what I understand, is LL x LL. What is the advantage of a sib cross over the primary cross?

 

[monocotman]

So it’s possible for a sib cross to uncover more variation in a cross than was found in the initial cross.
You can do that in two ways.
For a start, you are making more lines of the cross.
Then, it is possible that the genetics of inheritance within the cross can work differently in a sib cross compared to the original cross between the two different grexes. This can then produce plants with some different characteristics. The reason for this complex and probably not worth visiting.
In the case of this particular cross, both parents are supposed to be tetraploids, through conversion using colchicine.
Making the cross and observing the progeny would be a way of confirming that.

 

[terryros]

So it’s possible for a sib cross to uncover more variation in a cross than was found in the initial cross.
You can do that in two ways.
For a start, you are making more lines of the cross.
Then, it is possible that the genetics of inheritance within the cross can work differently in a sib cross compared to the original cross between the two different grexes. This can then produce plants with some different characteristics. The reason for this complex and probably not worth visiting.
In the case of this particular cross, both parents are supposed to be tetraploids, through conversion using colchicine.
Making the cross and observing the progeny would be a way of confirming that.

Yep. When you have a strong cross, a sibling cross can strengthen some desirable traits in offspring, ending up with plants that are even better than the two parents. Of course, a number of the offspring can also be worse than the two parents. But, with the whole flask, you are going to be able to select the very best.

 

[terryros]

David, let’s shuffle the gene deck a little. By percentages, Lovely Lynne (Peruflora’s Cirila Alca x Fritz Schomburg) should be 50% kovachii, 25% dalessandroi, and 25% besseae. Kew still recognizes dalessandroi as separate from besseae for breeding purposes, even though some would like it to be a var. of besseae. We believe your plant should be a tetraploid, which means it can probably breed.

The following picture is from the current flowering of my plant Yoko W. Fischer ‘Reijiro’ (Peruflora’s Cirila Alca x besseae ‘Rob’ Choice’), which should be 25% kovachii, 25% dalessandroi, and 50% besseae. So, the same three species but with less kovachii and more besseae. My plant should be a triploid, making it not a good choice for breeding.


My plant usually has flowers that are 11.5-12.0 cm horizontal and more coral in color than your Lovely Lynne because of more besseae and less kovachii. My flower spike has usually had one branch to it, which may be the dalessandroi effect.

So, shuffle the same three species around a little bit and you get different results.

 

[monocotman]

Indeed you do especially when you add another set of chromosomes and make it tetraploid. The flower has just fallen off this afternoon and it’s still pan flat with very thickly textured petals.
The pollen is being used as we speak on a couple of different plants. If either set seed and we see good germination then it’s almost certain that it’s a tetraploid.
I’d love to see a flower a more coloured like yours but with the shape of mine. There were signs of a branch in the leaf axils on my plants so fingers crossed that these develop when the plant is mature.
I grow just one other tetraploid plant, a Jason Fisher. Compared to these plants it’s glacially slow to grow and the flowers are small. I know which I prefer. If I get them to bloom together I may be tempted to cross them.

 

[terryros]

Indeed you do especially when you add another set of chromosomes and make it tetraploid. The flower has just fallen off this afternoon and it’s still pan flat with very thickly textured petals.
The pollen is being used as we speak on a couple of different plants. If either set seed and we see good germination then it’s almost certain that it’s a tetraploid.
I’d love to see a flower a more coloured like yours but with the shape of mine. There were signs of a branch in the leaf axils on my plants so fingers crossed that these develop when the plant is mature.
I grow just one other tetraploid plant, a Jason Fisher. Compared to these plants it’s glacially slow to grow and the flowers are small. I know which I prefer. If I get them to bloom together I may be tempted to cross them.

Your Lovely Lynne is rounder and flatter. My tetraploid Jason Fischer is growing better now and has become two plants, but your crop of Lovely Lynne is more robust. Do you think it is the difference in how you are growing them? Maybe this group of Phrags really does like to have the roots grow out horizontal. The plants then grow and bloom better? This may be telling us that they want air close to the roots but don’t want to be dry. It is tricky to create this in many potting situations.

 

[monocotman]

Terry,
the growth rate of these plants may well be due to the way they’re grown. But it may also be a bit of genetics. I know of another set of seedlings of this grex that are growing more conventionally in individual three inch pots in rockwool. They’ve done well and have a mature first growth but none are flowering. Fifteen of mine are in bud or sheath.
It may be too soon to say whether it’s mostly down to the tray. Maybe in a year we will have a better idea.

 

[monocotman]

Next one to flower. Nice but not as good as the previous bloom. Decent colour but some waviness in the petals. Substance not as good.
plant size comparable to the good one.

 

[terryros]

I always want to make everything a little study. I am thinking you need pictures of the two parents. Then, you get comparable pictures of each new plant’s flower. You then rank each plant as “worse than, equal to, and better than” the parents. I know some could improve with subsequent flowerings, but their first flowers tell us something. I am interested in the range you get from your flask. When those genes get shuffled, lots of things can happen.

 

[monocotman]

Indeed Terry. It’s the fun of a grow out. I don’t have a photo of the parents although I’ve seen one on his website. They were large, flat and very full with overlapping petals and reddish with a purple overlay. They did look tetraploid, far more than some of these seedlings. Jason Fischer says not to judge a phrag until the third blooming so there is time yet for some of these to improve.
I‘m not sure how many of these I’ll keep beyond the really good one. I ought to flower out some of the others just to see if they improve.

 

[monocotman]

Next one. It’s the biggest so far. This is its first day open and it is already 12.5cm. It should expand another 10%. Unfortunately there is quite a bit of asymmetry in the petals. The right one is quite a bit bigger. The plant is a single growth of about 40cm across. Anyway, it’s another promising seedling.

 

[terryros]

My guess is that the bigger the flower, the more kovachii influence is in there and the harder to get towards red color. I think large, round, and flat is the goal with a color range in the coral group.