L
lienluu
Guest
Isaias Rolando asked me to post these photos for him.
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B
Barbara
Guest
:drool: Beautiful, I can't wait to find one of these. Love the habitat photos, all that moss, they must like it on the acidic side. Thanks for sharing the photos.:clap:
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Very cool, and look at those reflexed petals in the first photo!
wonderlen3000
Well-Known Member
Wow. Nice picture. Some how i like the reflexed petals than those wide round petals. Look more natural to me.
smartie2000
Well-Known Member
I like that these plants have short foliage
WolfDog1 (C. Williams)
Well-Known Member
Nice.....very nice.
Makes me want to take a trip to see
them in person.
Makes me want to take a trip to see
them in person.
I
isaias m rolando
Guest
Do you want me to organize an expedition to see these beauties in their natural homeland? Like the one we did with Dr Harold Koopowitz?
Will be my pleisure to do so...
We can take care of permits and all that to make your visit a wonderful one.
I will be doing some field research by June this year and later by November-December.
Will be my pleisure to do so...
We can take care of permits and all that to make your visit a wonderful one.
I will be doing some field research by June this year and later by November-December.
I
isaias m rolando
Guest
Thank you lienluu for your kind assistance
I have more pics to post...
I have more pics to post...
I always notice that my plants that have moss & algae in the pots actually more healthy than the ones without. So there must be something about it that is good for the orchids.OrchidNorth said:
I thought Isaias post a pk website that says the pk should be raised with more alkaline because they are growing on limestone? was I mistaken?
G
Greenthings
Guest
isaias m rolando said:
Isaias I know, we all are anxious to see the natural habitats of orchids. We are all very anxious to see the exciting Pk habitats. Such is only natural for orchid growers.
However, when one is seriously concerned about orchid conserving/preserving, as you say you are re the Phragmipedium kovachii habitats, or whatever little is left of them, the last thing one wants to do is conduct public tours to them. You simply do not! It is a no-no!
When a large group of well fed "gringos" visit a Peruvian Pk habitat where poor farmers live nearby, the message you are sending them is, "there is money to be made." You can't blame these poor farmers for ripping out the Pk and selling them for a few bucks to vendors, or worse, on the Moyobamba market, where many of them died from high temperatures and improper care.
The habitat Dr. Harold Koopowitz and his large group visited in May 2003, had an estimated 2000 to 3000 mature Pk plants.
Lee Moore, owner operator of Nuevo Destino Nurseries in Moyobamba, who has visited all known Pk habitats reported that a few weeks after that tour , the habitat was totally depleted. I suppose there may be a few plants left.
Others may agree with your tours there. I, having some experience with orchid conservation projects, totally disagree. We should not conduct public tours to endangered orchid species habitats.
The alternative, guarded Orchid Gardens near the habitats is a much better way of having tourists enjoy them, not unlike the one you created at the hotel in Machu Picchu. You may wish to tell the forum members about that project Isaias.
My two cents worth anyway.
Peter
Rick
Well-Known Member
I think you make some good points Peter. Eco-tourism should leave no footprint.
But I think there must be some other way that well fed gringos can interact with real habitat and local culture without being spoon fed from parks. I'm not trying to put down the parks either, they will have their audiance and conservation benefit too.
This is a very interesting dilema that we should discuss more.
But I think there must be some other way that well fed gringos can interact with real habitat and local culture without being spoon fed from parks. I'm not trying to put down the parks either, they will have their audiance and conservation benefit too.
This is a very interesting dilema that we should discuss more.
I
isaias m rolando
Guest
OK, this will be very long, have a confortable chair and seat please...
-First of all, Lee Moore is not the Guru for PK information. He has NOT visited all pk habitats. PERIOD. There is a very good population in habitat Nº 3...and Nº 4...and probably there exist more habitats....
-Habitat Nº 2 was depleted...yes sure, after collecting permit Nº 2. Who did this? you all know that convicted person. Inrena-Cites Peru issued in 2003 a CITES Export permit for 300 plants of said "Phrag boissierianum" to this person. Do you think these were really boissierianum? Now you can explain better how you have pk hybrids like PK X besseae in the US.
-why you guys always repeat and insist that "poor locals" are constantly depleting PK wild population? Do you know that there are pictures of an helicopter landing near pk habitat? Where did this Helicopter was coming from? Not from Peru, certainly. They identified themselfs as chilean with northern accent....?
-Do you know that there is a country in Europe having a full greenhouse with hundreds of PK? That they also have the alba form?
-Do you know that there are thousands of pk in Ecuador? specially in a greenhouse full of this nice plant? Of course they constanly deny it. But a member of this well known family was police captured last year with 4500 illegaly extracted orchid plants?
-Do you know that pk was in Taiwan even before the description of the new specie? This is recent info and you will see soon how they will fill the market with pk hybrids, if not the specie itself. So the best efforts in Australia to reproduce their illegal obtained plants will be only for that local and big island.
-So please DO NOT BLAME ON POOR LOCALS. They are not responsible for pk extinction in the first two habitats. Responsibles have already been convicted by US Department of Justice but scaped from US and can not travel anymore because Interpol is after him. That is why the son is doing and perpetuating their illegal comercial activities. The father was also in prisson here in Peru. The Club Peruano de Orquideas put him out as a member by unanimous decision of ALL MEMBERS. How can he export? With the help of some bad officers at Inrena. I am sure when the new President will know about this illegal activities he will stop that bussines. All his plants should be confiscated and returned to where they belong: the peruvian jungle. He always exported but wild collected material, for the last 30 years at least.And he calls his plants "fresh material" (sic, means jungle collected looking like cultivated).
-Conservation in situ is the best way to save a wild orchid population. I believe pk is safe now from extinction, because it is everywhere in this planet. Please lets do something to preserve the wild existant population in the natural habitats. This is a land of no use for agriculture, perhaps some timber activities, but that's it. It is already a protected area, but anyopne can enter and take whatever they want. There are no Inrena controls or police controls.
-I agree with you Peter, but why do you want to not have tourist activities if whit this legal bussines the "poor locals" can obtain some income and not to depend of an illegal extraction of a few orchids. Lets do something diferent, like to create a real protected private land to preserve many orchids , not just pk. And to have paid visits with tourists coming from any corner of the planet, before we want to stop a few "poor locals" and doing nothing to stop the black market buying from them the specie and hybrids...
-Am I clear enough?
I know that posting this facts I risk my life, because I have some real enemies that act very badly when they are exposed....you will see...
VERITAS ILLUMINATIO MEA
IN GOD I TRUST
-First of all, Lee Moore is not the Guru for PK information. He has NOT visited all pk habitats. PERIOD. There is a very good population in habitat Nº 3...and Nº 4...and probably there exist more habitats....
-Habitat Nº 2 was depleted...yes sure, after collecting permit Nº 2. Who did this? you all know that convicted person. Inrena-Cites Peru issued in 2003 a CITES Export permit for 300 plants of said "Phrag boissierianum" to this person. Do you think these were really boissierianum? Now you can explain better how you have pk hybrids like PK X besseae in the US.
-why you guys always repeat and insist that "poor locals" are constantly depleting PK wild population? Do you know that there are pictures of an helicopter landing near pk habitat? Where did this Helicopter was coming from? Not from Peru, certainly. They identified themselfs as chilean with northern accent....?
-Do you know that there is a country in Europe having a full greenhouse with hundreds of PK? That they also have the alba form?
-Do you know that there are thousands of pk in Ecuador? specially in a greenhouse full of this nice plant? Of course they constanly deny it. But a member of this well known family was police captured last year with 4500 illegaly extracted orchid plants?
-Do you know that pk was in Taiwan even before the description of the new specie? This is recent info and you will see soon how they will fill the market with pk hybrids, if not the specie itself. So the best efforts in Australia to reproduce their illegal obtained plants will be only for that local and big island.
-So please DO NOT BLAME ON POOR LOCALS. They are not responsible for pk extinction in the first two habitats. Responsibles have already been convicted by US Department of Justice but scaped from US and can not travel anymore because Interpol is after him. That is why the son is doing and perpetuating their illegal comercial activities. The father was also in prisson here in Peru. The Club Peruano de Orquideas put him out as a member by unanimous decision of ALL MEMBERS. How can he export? With the help of some bad officers at Inrena. I am sure when the new President will know about this illegal activities he will stop that bussines. All his plants should be confiscated and returned to where they belong: the peruvian jungle. He always exported but wild collected material, for the last 30 years at least.And he calls his plants "fresh material" (sic, means jungle collected looking like cultivated).
-Conservation in situ is the best way to save a wild orchid population. I believe pk is safe now from extinction, because it is everywhere in this planet. Please lets do something to preserve the wild existant population in the natural habitats. This is a land of no use for agriculture, perhaps some timber activities, but that's it. It is already a protected area, but anyopne can enter and take whatever they want. There are no Inrena controls or police controls.
-I agree with you Peter, but why do you want to not have tourist activities if whit this legal bussines the "poor locals" can obtain some income and not to depend of an illegal extraction of a few orchids. Lets do something diferent, like to create a real protected private land to preserve many orchids , not just pk. And to have paid visits with tourists coming from any corner of the planet, before we want to stop a few "poor locals" and doing nothing to stop the black market buying from them the specie and hybrids...
-Am I clear enough?
I know that posting this facts I risk my life, because I have some real enemies that act very badly when they are exposed....you will see...
VERITAS ILLUMINATIO MEA
IN GOD I TRUST
G
Greenthings
Guest
isaias m rolando said:
Hi Isaias,
I will not reveal the name of the Peruvian person you talk about, but simply call him Mr X.; his US partner Mr. Y. Many ST subscribers will already know who they are.
I am well aware of the many incidents you refer to in your post; I will not argue with you the different views you and I may hold about them.
I must point out that the person you speak of,(Mr. X,) was not convicted by the USDOJ for smuggling Pk; neither was Mr. Y.
Please check the March 11 2004 USDOJ indictment against Mr.X and Mr.Y for the exact charges. You may well have evidence who was involved in Pk smuggling, but in all fairness to Mr X and Mr. Y. that is not what they were charged with.
peter
Last edited by a moderator:
isaias m rolando said:
Who were these 300 plants of "Phrag boissierianum" exported to in the USA?
All exports must have a importer on the other end.
isaias m rolando said:
Isaias
I am very impressed by the well of information. I did not know that so many countries have so many pk plants. And here I thought that we are the first pioneers in the whole world importing them into the US in flasks.
I agree that if you organize, and tell the local that if they preserve & protect the pk habitat site, they will have income year after year from tourist, if they sell them, when the plants are depleted, so will be the money (they can even import cheap pk seedlings from taiwan to sell at the gate before the tourist going home.
Years ago, My father once travelled to the USA, buy a toy totem at a native american reservation for me, it has a MADE IN CHINA stamped at the bottom)
L
lienluu
Guest
Hien said:
This method of conservation is employed all over the world with very good results. Similar ecotours are done with parrot species and once notorious pouchers have become part of the conservation team who work with the government to ensure survival of the species, with their salaries paid by tourism.
Paphman910
Well-Known Member
A few growers have told me that there will be lots of Phrag kovachii in the market very soon. I think I better save my money and purchase them later as the price will no doubt go down.
Paphman910
Paphman910
Isaias, It is good you are speaking out.
Isaias did you read this....
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2384
I already asked you who these plants were exported to. People in other countries can't do anything to affect Peruvian exporters. You need to identify who the importers of illegal kovachii are. Then buyers can avoid paying money to support the black market.
I have said the Peruvian black market has a great effect on the population, but NOT THE "POOR LOCALS". The poor locals are not responsible or accountable for any economic or environmental problems. But there are plenty of RICH Peruvians who have hired poachers to get them plants. These guys are responsible who ever they are.
Somebody flew a helicopter from Chile to Northern Peru to collect kovachii from the wild? Just because it landed in the area does not mean they were collecting orchids. I think helicopters have a much more valuable cargo to carry on that route. Helicopters land in Madre de Dios all the time, and they are not picking up castana.
What king of northern accent? USA or Columbian?
Name please. For reasons stated above.
Is this a known fact or only what people believe to be true?
Taiwan usually gets the first of new fish species discovered also. They pay a lot of money.
In prison in Peru for crimes involveing plants?
Does the father own acciones in the company or is all in the name of the son?
Not without a complete change in INRENA which has surrvived many Presidents.
No! They should be given to a legal person to propigate them. You should not return contaminated plants back to the jungle. That could introduce a disease from Lima.
So that means it is not only INRENA that is the problem but also SENASA for issueing phytosanitary permits on wild plants.
Timber harvest in that area will be of no threat to kovachii plants.
What protection status does the area have? Anyone can enter and take whatever they want anywhere in Peru, even in Manu and Tambopata.
What is your idea? It sounds like you want to create a private reserve under a tourism concession? How will this help all the local poor people?
Isaias, I lived in Puerto Maldonado for 6 years. I worked very closely with FENAMAD and I know the poor people well, they are my friends. I also know exactly how ONGs work. I have seen how the "poor people" despise the National Parks and protected areas. You must take care how you try to protect the environment least you lead the "poor people" to destroy it.
Your idea is good but the text book approach will not work well.
I support your efforts to try to preserve a piece of the jungle before it is too late. If you want to talk about your ideas with me feel free to contact me or start a thread (as Rick mentioned) on this forum about conservation that is separate from the equally important discussion about the black market.
Somebody needs to speak up in Peru, you make a good start.
la lucha continua
isaias m rolando said:
Isaias did you read this....
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2384
I already asked you who these plants were exported to. People in other countries can't do anything to affect Peruvian exporters. You need to identify who the importers of illegal kovachii are. Then buyers can avoid paying money to support the black market.
I have said the Peruvian black market has a great effect on the population, but NOT THE "POOR LOCALS". The poor locals are not responsible or accountable for any economic or environmental problems. But there are plenty of RICH Peruvians who have hired poachers to get them plants. These guys are responsible who ever they are.
Somebody flew a helicopter from Chile to Northern Peru to collect kovachii from the wild? Just because it landed in the area does not mean they were collecting orchids. I think helicopters have a much more valuable cargo to carry on that route. Helicopters land in Madre de Dios all the time, and they are not picking up castana.
What king of northern accent? USA or Columbian?
Name please. For reasons stated above.
Is this a known fact or only what people believe to be true?
Taiwan usually gets the first of new fish species discovered also. They pay a lot of money.
In prison in Peru for crimes involveing plants?
Does the father own acciones in the company or is all in the name of the son?
Not without a complete change in INRENA which has surrvived many Presidents.
No! They should be given to a legal person to propigate them. You should not return contaminated plants back to the jungle. That could introduce a disease from Lima.
So that means it is not only INRENA that is the problem but also SENASA for issueing phytosanitary permits on wild plants.
Timber harvest in that area will be of no threat to kovachii plants.
What protection status does the area have? Anyone can enter and take whatever they want anywhere in Peru, even in Manu and Tambopata.
What is your idea? It sounds like you want to create a private reserve under a tourism concession? How will this help all the local poor people?
Isaias, I lived in Puerto Maldonado for 6 years. I worked very closely with FENAMAD and I know the poor people well, they are my friends. I also know exactly how ONGs work. I have seen how the "poor people" despise the National Parks and protected areas. You must take care how you try to protect the environment least you lead the "poor people" to destroy it.
Your idea is good but the text book approach will not work well.
I support your efforts to try to preserve a piece of the jungle before it is too late. If you want to talk about your ideas with me feel free to contact me or start a thread (as Rick mentioned) on this forum about conservation that is separate from the equally important discussion about the black market.
Somebody needs to speak up in Peru, you make a good start.
la lucha continua
