Phal problem

[ALToronto]

Yes, they're wet from the SS, and it's rated for mites. I checked for mites very closely but couldn't find any signs of them. My first reaction was insects, but then why wouldn't they eat the cattleyas that are touching leaves with these phals? I think something else is in play here.

 

[orcoholic]

The roots look good, but i've never seen leaves so devastated as those w/o something like overexposure (and a lot of overexposure) to sun or a bad freeze - and it doesn't look like that as the leaves turn black after freezing.

Suggest throwing out anything that looks like them - especially if it spreads.

 

[Rick]

Moss versus bark versus rock.

I have most of mine mounted, and even if still in a pot, encourage roots to go aerial.

Moss starts low salt, but accumulates fertilizer elements (including trace metals) very quickly. You need to fertilize at very low rates or very small application amounts to keep moss from turning into a high concentration mess after just a handful of fert applications. Also dry conditions accelerate this even more since salts/metals are left behind after the water evaporates from the media.

Also moss develops bacterial colonies quickly that generate very low pH conditions when nitrogen applications are >10ppm (especially with ammonia or urea base). Once the pH drops <<5.0 -4.0 then start looking for nutrient deficiencies even though you may be plowing even more fert into the pot. Death spiral.

Rock or mounting eliminates the complication of moss based pot chemistry, but then you have to water every day.

I use moss in limited applications (and almost never with Phals anymore), but these days limit feed rates to under 10ppm N with a nitrate based feed (k lite). Otherwise be prepared to change the moss every couple of months.

Beyond that consider disease issues, and look at Naoki's papers on use of asprin, but plants do have immune systems, so try to figure what may be the cause of low immunity letting disease take hold. Those trace metals are potent toxicants when they aren't in trace amounts.

 

[Rick]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...79j9iIKeqjAXuZDY5eViBHw&bvm=bv.67229260,d.b2U

Here's a big complex paper on metal toxicity. Just skimming saw some interesting comparisons between issues with solution based applications (no or limited media effects) or media based applications.

Also to consider are potential changes with base irrigation water. Unless working strictly off of RO/distilled water, is your irrigation water going through copper plumbing? Are you on an iron/manganese rich well water? Did your drinking plant just up the aluminum dose for water treatment?

 

[Rick]

http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/88/61/01/PDF/hal-00886101.pdf

Aluminum looks pretty bad, and can pop up in surface/drinking waters fairly readily.

It looks like it causes lots of deficiencies that look like everything we've discussed.

 

[Rick]

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21104044306577

YIKES!

 

[Erythrone]

Rick, I am very concerned about the "quality" of her water. She now uses reverse osmose system for purifying the well water. Analysis of the well water before treatment is very bad. I remember there was a lot of Na. Don't remember about Fe, Al or Cu. She told me there is methane on it a few days ago.

I think an analysis of the RO water could be useful.

 

[Rick]

Rick, I am very concerned about the "quality" of her water. She now uses reverse osmose system for purifying the well water. Analysis of the well water before treatment is very bad. I remember there was a lot of Na. Don't remember about Fe, Al or Cu. She told me there is methane on it a few days ago.

I think an analysis of the RO water could be useful.

How long ago did she start with RO?

Was it a brand new home system or broke in?

I never set up my own personal home system (it's still sitting in the box), but in the directions it mentioned a biocide with brand new membranes that needed to be flushed out before use. (I steal all my water from a monster DI system at work).

Also if she's been using the system for some time, the system may be to the point where quality has declined significantly (as you may be eluding too).

 

[ALToronto]

You're supposed to discard the first 5 gallons (I dumped it on my outdoor plants). Initially, my RO water was reading 12-13 ppm TDS, now it reads about 7. I guess anything biological wouldn't register, but the water tastes just fine and makes great tea and coffee.

There is really not much to setting it up, as long as you have room for all the equipment under your sink. We didn't, so we had a more complex installation in a basement closet, directly under the kitchen sink. We had to buy extra tubing, as well as a proper valve for the water supply line - I will never use a puncturing needle valve. Took about an hour, not counting the trip to Home Despot.

 

[Rick]

You're supposed to discard the first 5 gallons (I dumped it on my outdoor plants). Initially, my RO water was reading 12-13 ppm TDS, now it reads about 7.

Sounds like it's running just fine. How long ago did you start using your RO system?

 

[OrchidIsa]

How long ago did she start with RO?

Was it a brand new home system or broke in?

I never set up my own personal home system (it's still sitting in the box), but in the directions it mentioned a biocide with brand new membranes that needed to be flushed out before use. (I steal all my water from a monster DI system at work).

Also if she's been using the system for some time, the system may be to the point where quality has declined significantly (as you may be eluding too).

Hi! I'm back after a week (or so) of PC problems.

I'm using RO water since last November. It's a brand new system we installed at that time. I flushed the system, as we were told to do. We've been told to change the cartridges and membrane once a year (2 years for the membrane I think). The water been tested before the installation to know which system was the best choice. I've had the water tested again after passing through the system, to know how well it was working. I've been told there was only 21 tds in the treated water. Since there was 202 mg/L of Na, now with total TDS, I think the water is almost pure. Yes, I've been told that there is methane in the water but I can't find anything on the web saying it's a problem for plants... I'm going to ask elsewhere to see if someone knows if it can cause problems to orchids.

 

[OrchidIsa]

Anyone checking pH on pot drainage.

Could be iron or sulfate deficiency if pot pH has crept up to >7.

Epsom salts or epsom salt+ an iron supplement.

But check pH first.

The PH of the treated water seems to be higher than 7. Ery told me she finds those results a bit weird.

I'll run some new tests and have my water tested by a lab soon.

 

[OrchidIsa]

In general are all these phals in pots or any mounted?

I've seen more "deficiency" like problems in potted phals, especially using moss, and virtually no problems with mounted plants. Moss holds onto, and accumulates things more than other substrates. Especially metals (the " micronutrients" in our fert mixes)

What could be "deficiency" could actually be "toxicity".

Even if your substrate is only a few months old, I'd change it out for something more porous. Like big chunky bark. The closer you get to a mounted situation the better for phals.

This bellina is in a big bark pot. I'll repot it since it's more than a year old now. We'll see...

 

[OrchidIsa]

OrchidIsa!
A lot of opinions flying here! We would love to know whats causing it but I think you must provide detailed information about your growing conditions and techinique before we can zero in on the problem (if that is possible)

Temps, Humidity, Air movement?
Water temps, quantity and quality?
Fertilizer type?
Fertilizer strength?
Fertilizer frequency?
Are all the affected plants from the same source?
Have you noticed it developing on plants that were nice and healthy before?
If so, were they potted in sphag as well?

You mentioned no other genera were affected. What else are you growing?

BTW you definitly have/had a mite issue which would be the vector if it turns out to be virus. You can see small pitting on the leaves here and there.

In the end Phals are quite cheap and fast growing so it might pay to throw them all out and start again as somone suggested.

So:

Temps: to high hahahaha! Plants were in my large room that is going to 18C at night to 40C when it's sunny.

Last fall, there was a serious lack of ventilation in that room and so, I had big problems with rot in phrags, coelogyne, and phals began to get those spots. I had/have a mite problem too, that's not a secret. Since, I put a large fan in the room so there is a good air movement (and got 95% of my plants out of the room).

Fertilizer: I was using MSU, 20-20-20 and 25-10-10, each one week and then, a week of pure water. Before using RO, I was using rain water. Concentration: between 75 and 100 ppm N/ 4 liters

The plants are all from different places.

Majority of phals were in bark. They were all healthy before those problems began last fall. They were almost all put in garbage. For now, only the bellina remains.

In that same area, I was growing paphs, phrags, a coelogyne, masdies, a dendro and stanhopeas.

 

[Rick]

40C is really high.

Any idea of humidity %.

 

[ALToronto]

Would it be advisable to mount a distressed phal? I've tried mounting distressed cattleyas, with about a 75% success rate. I'm tempted to put my phals (which are all growing perfect new leaves) on one of my living walls. I have other phals on them, but they haven't attached yet.

 

[ALToronto]

The PH of the treated water seems to be higher than 7. Ery told me she finds those results a bit weird.

I'll run some new tests and have my water tested by a lab soon.

I also have high pH of my RO water. At such low tds, it's very easy to unbalance the pH in either direction. If you breathe on a water sample while taking a reading, you can watch the pH plummet from the carbonic acid formed by the CO2 in your breath.

 

[OrchidIsa]

40C is really high.

Any idea of humidity %.

Oh, wow. Totally forgot to mention that. When temp goes that hi, the humidity goes as low as 35%. I have a humidifier but it can't stabilize humidity at a good rate. When it's not that hot, I can keep the room at 50-55%. It's a living room so I don't want the humidity to be very high.

 

[Rick]

Oh, wow. Totally forgot to mention that. When temp goes that hi, the humidity goes as low as 35%. I have a humidifier but it can't stabilize humidity at a good rate. When it's not that hot, I can keep the room at 50-55%. It's a living room so I don't want the humidity to be very high.

Wow I would characterize 100F and 35%RH as brutal for phalaes.

If the light is decent I can see Catts doing ok but not Phalaes.

I don't think we need to discuss nutrition until the basic environmental conditions are under control

 

[orcoholic]

I also have high pH of my RO water. At such low tds, it's very easy to unbalance the pH in either direction. If you breathe on a water sample while taking a reading, you can watch the pH plummet from the carbonic acid formed by the CO2 in your breath.

Adding fertilizer to RO water can also drastically change the Ph. Would adding some tap water help stabalize the Ph?

I mix in some well water with my RO water and then add fertilizer, or whatever I want to add, and bring the Ec up to 1. The Ph is adjusted to about 6.5.

This works well for a very mixed collection, including recently unflasked seedlings, Pleuros, Phrags, Phals, Catts, Vandas, Paphs, Dens and others. Come to think of it, I never met an orchid I didn't like.