Phal problem

[Paphman910]

How are the roots on them?

 

[OrchidIsa]

There are plenty of healthy roots. The plants seem to continue growing normally.

 

[lepetitmartien]

Usually people test for CyMV and ORSV, as it's the most common ones and there are rapid tests available from different sources. But there's 30+ viruses of concern in orchids, fortunately most are rare stuff, but one common has no rapid test and has only for a few years an ELISA available : OFV. It could be OFV but it's a wild guess without testing.

And there ARE deficiencies.

 

[OrchidIsa]

Here are some other pictures (evolution of the problem)

The first one is to show the texture of the leaf.

 

[gonewild]

That's ugly.
Close up it looks like a virus. Not one of the well know types that a simple test will determine.

 

[Justin]

ugh i would incinerate or trash those now. start over with healthy plants and a different fertilizer regime.

 

[Rick]

Anyone checking pH on pot drainage.

Could be iron or sulfate deficiency if pot pH has crept up to >7.

Epsom salts or epsom salt+ an iron supplement.

But check pH first.

 

[Rick]

In general are all these phals in pots or any mounted?

I've seen more "deficiency" like problems in potted phals, especially using moss, and virtually no problems with mounted plants. Moss holds onto, and accumulates things more than other substrates. Especially metals (the " micronutrients" in our fert mixes)

What could be "deficiency" could actually be "toxicity".

Even if your substrate is only a few months old, I'd change it out for something more porous. Like big chunky bark. The closer you get to a mounted situation the better for phals.

 

[Stone]

Today's pictures:

The third picture here is almost certainly a virus.

 

[Ozpaph]

I agree with Mike.

 

[OrchidIsa]

This plant on the third picture is gone. Was put in the garbage a few weeks ago. From those three, only the bellina is remaining (I just posted pictures of the problem evolution)

I just bought another phal violacea HP Norton from the same prod that doesn't look good...

 

[Justin]

try Big Leaf orchids if you want healthy phals with great breeding.

 

[orcoholic]

This looks like overfertilization.

I've never seen anything like it on Phals so unless it's a new disease, I doubt it's fungal or viral. I get Phals from four different vendors each month and would think it would show up somewhere if it were fungal, viral, or some kind of new insect. I also grow about 500 Phals.

What intrigues me is so many growers on this site have or had the same problem that so many people have never seen before.

Overfertilization causes are mostly obvious, but since most of the growers are experienced I doubt it's because they used a lot more fert. on a consistent basis.

My wildass guess is that it's a batch of bad potting media, that was loaded with salts and bought from the same vendor or, that a few vendors got potting media from the same outlet and then distributed it nationwide.

It's also interesting that none of the European growers and Australian growers have indicated they are having the same problem, or even seen the same problem.

If everyone having the problem would list where they got the medium that they planted the phals in, I hope that would solve the problem. If you have any of the medium left, soak it in water and see what the TDS or mS is after it soaks for a night.

Other possible reasons could be the K-lite regimen or watering with very low amounts of fertilizer (and starving the plant). I only say these because these have been adopted by so many growers on the site and the problem seems to be limited to growers on the site.

 

[gonewild]

This looks like overfertilization.

I've never seen anything like it on Phals so unless it's a new disease, I doubt it's fungal or viral. I get Phals from four different vendors each month and would think it would show up somewhere if it were fungal, viral, or some kind of new insect. I also grow about 500 Phals.

What intrigues me is so many growers on this site have or had the same problem that so many people have never seen before.

"New" viral outbreaks always start with one individual and spread to other individuals in the close community. So if it is a new virus it would not be seen by many people until it is spread outward. So far the comments have been that it is limited to Phalaenopsis and spreads through entire collections.

My wildass guess is that it's a batch of bad potting media, that was loaded with salts and bought from the same vendor or, that a few vendors got potting media from the same outlet and then distributed it nationwide.

The media seems to be Sphagnum moss.
If it were bad media why would it be limited to Phals? And if it were bad sphagnum moss the problem would be more widespread and "worldwide" since Sphagnum is distributed worldwide.

It's also interesting that none of the European growers and Australian growers have indicated they are having the same problem, or even seen the same problem.

This supports the new virus theory doesn't it?

Other possible reasons could be the K-lite regimen or watering with very low amounts of fertilizer (and starving the plant). I only say these because these have been adopted by so many growers on the site and the problem seems to be limited to growers on the site.

It's not limited to growers on this site, a google search actually has a lot more events on other forums spanning back a year or more.

OrchidISA stated that the NZ sphagnum moss was only a couple months old and that the pots are full of healthy roots.

There is no reason to connect the problem to starvation by the K-lite regimen. OrchidISA has not mentioned what type or how much fertilizer has been applied as far as I have read. When the problem is evaluated and if K-lite were suspected then you would have to assume it was caused by a lack of potassium. We can dismiss that assumption because commercial research done for Phalaenopsis production has proven that Phals growing in Sphagnum don't suffer from low potassium fertilizer applications.

 

[Hera]

I've experienced this with several types of medium, several ferts and new and old medium. Once it starts its impossible to stop, antifungal sprays don't do anything to retard it and cutting off the affected leaves dosen't stop it.

 

[gonewild]

I've experienced this with several types of medium, several ferts and new and old medium. Once it starts its impossible to stop, antifungal sprays don't do anything to retard it and cutting off the affected leaves dosen't stop it.

Does it spread from plant to plant quickly or appear on many plants at the same time?
Is it only on Phals?

 

[orcoholic]

1. I think the new virus theory gets ruled out because it would be more widespread by now, especially if the problem does go back at least a year. There are only a limited number of Phal producers these days so I believe we would see a lot more of it by now - unless all the affected plants were from a small breeder here in the US.

2. I never said all Sphagnum was affected. I said some, from one vendor, or from a group of vendors that sourced their moss from the same place may have been affected and loaded with salts.

3. I'm not aware of a lot of orchids, other than Phals, that are planted in Sphagnum - at least here in the US.

4. I agree there is no reason to associate the problem with K-Lite or low TDS use. It just seems that there are a lot of people on this site using these regimens and that may be the problem. Also, you don't know that the growers on other sites haven't gotten their moss from the same vendors that the growers on this site did.

5. To take commercial studies and use them a source of reference is useless. The commercial studies are produced for commercial growers with perfect conditions that never vary. No one reproduces those conditions outside of the huge commercial growers that spend a lot of money to create the conditions.

6. I deal with Taiwanese vendors every month. Someone would have said something if there is a new virus about.

I'm sticking with overfertilization or too much salts in the medium - especially since the first place the problem showed up was on the tips of the leaves - which were cut off.

 

[gonewild]

1. I think the new virus theory gets ruled out because it would be more widespread by now, especially if the problem does go back at least a year. There are only a limited number of Phal producers these days so I believe we would see a lot more of it by now - unless all the affected plants were from a small breeder here in the US.

You make the assumption that if it is a virus it would have started in or be present in commercial production. It may very well be a virus that appeared in a private collection and is being passed from hobbyist to hobbyist.

2. I never said all Sphagnum was affected. I said some, from one vendor, or from a group of vendors that sourced their moss from the same place may have been affected and loaded with salts.

Of course anything is possible but it is highly unlikely that Sphagnum moss would come loaded with enough salts to kill entire collections of only one genera.

3. I'm not aware of a lot of orchids, other than Phals, that are planted in Sphagnum - at least here in the US.

You then will be surprised! many growers add sphag to their mixes for other genera.

4. I agree there is no reason to associate the problem with K-Lite or low TDS use. It just seems that there are a lot of people on this site using these regimens and that may be the problem. Also, you don't know that the growers on other sites haven't gotten their moss from the same vendors that the growers on this site did.

I think if you look at other forums and search this problem you will see that it predates the K-lite theory and use.

5. To take commercial studies and use them a source of reference is useless. The commercial studies are produced for commercial growers with perfect conditions that never vary. No one reproduces those conditions outside of the huge commercial growers that spend a lot of money to create the conditions.

Geez, I finally reference a research paper and now I'm told research papers are useless.....you sound like me.

6. I deal with Taiwanese vendors every month. Someone would have said something if there is a new virus about.

Only if it were in Taiwan, which it apparently is not.

I'm sticking with overfertilization or too much salts in the medium - especially since the first place the problem showed up was on the tips of the leaves - which were cut off.

Did you read post #34?
Where Hera said..
"I've experienced this with several types of medium, several ferts and new and old medium. Once it starts its impossible to stop"

That rules out contaminated sphagnum and nutrients.

 

[Erythrone]

OrchidIsa doesn't use K-lite anyway. I know she uses MSU for pure water, 20-20-20 and 25 -10-10 for ochids in bark. I don't know about the strength of the solution for the plants growing on sphagnum.

 

[Erythrone]

You then will be surprised! many growers add sphag to their mixes for other genera.

Right! I grow many genus on straight sphagnum.. or sometimes with perlite or Leca: Aerangis, Phrags, Masdies, Paphinia. Even a large complex Paph.

And think about the Neofinetias.... Almost everybody are growing them in sphagnum!