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Discussion in 'Paphiopedilum' started by paphreek, Mar 29, 2016.
The colour and presentation on this clone are just outstanding.
Sorry, were those AOS size standards?
I'd take one...
That is a classic!
I'd actually agree with this and 2cm petals and a nice synsepal. Color means lots too and can make up for some of these.
To answer your question, if you are going to dedicate the time and the effort and this would be your main Roth cross I wouldn't. The effort and resources would likely not be worth it. If you are just going to make a flask or two to grow and sell a few. Why not. If you have a huge Roth breeding program I think this could add some diversity. Although there is lots of mm in there. The same with most modern breeding lines.
Nice, from Ratcliffe, or A world of Orchids/Kissimmee?
Bought it from Paul Phillips of Ratcliffe Orchids when they were still in Kissimmee. He came to talk at the Orchid Society of Minnesota around 2000 or 2001 and I bought this plant as a small seedling in a 2 1/2 inch pot. It grew slowly in the house until 2010, when it moved to our newly built greenhouse.
I'm sometimes very surprised to read how it's necessary to always follow standard, always always always...
Standard is like the Fashion for me. Very interesting but what is good to see other dress codes in the street!
Currently, roths standard to reach is very round, very big and very dark. Yes, that's good and I would like to have some like that. And after?
It's why I like rothschildianum from Taiwan. They have maybe not the best roths in the world if we talk to standard but what diversity with many breeding lines from several wild breeding. Not only MM x Val and MM x Rex, what is what we see mainly in Japan and US!
So paphreek, I say again: "keep it preciously". It will be a rare roth in 20years!
Speaking as a commercial plant breeder it is very important for the long term development of your material to keep as much genetic diversity as possible.
In the short term you are unlikely to see an advantage but maybe three generations down the line when all the Rex and Mont Millais material has been inter crossed to produce the biggest roundest darkest flowers possible then where next?
Older clones from other breeding lines then become much more important.
So what you use depends on the length of your outlook!
It has good 'stance' with excellent flower presentation and good colour. If you are going to the trouble of breeding with it perhaps aim to enhance those characteristics.
You know this Roth is dominated by MM right? The orchid zone roths have plenty of diversity. Rex, mm, radical, nanchou, Chester hills.
Japan has many other wild collected strains as well besides Charles e, Borneo and mm.
I'm not taking away from this Roth. I'd love to have it. To breed with it in any large scale I would be careful. Especially if it is your main stock. Roths take lots of space, time and effort. Want to only breed the best unless you have tons of space
@paphioland: Your opinion is not mine.
I just noted "your best" is not "my best". In fact, I don't have really "best" but "different"
I have currently in bloom my TC2 x self. It's the 3rd or 4th time and this year, because of space, I thought to sell it. Just 3 flowers, dorsal is not very big, flower is not very big (26cms), color is classic but when I looked at yesterday, I saw a perfect presentation in my eyes, lots of charm and I saw too a nice "wild" form (TC2 is a wild collected plant.) So I will keep it for that.
In my opinion, I find it unfortunate that everything converges towards standardization while as you noted (my mistake about just Rex and MM), many roths are at the origin. I just wanted to caricaturate a little saying US roths awarded = MM x Rex and Japan roths awarded = MM x Val
But if you have pictures from TON or OZ of different breeding lines and they don't try to converge to the same standard, I'm open to tell I'm wrong.
PS: Yesterday, I looked at the Paphiopedilum in Taiwan VI and I saw a diversity of roths that I don't think to find in US or Japan.
People can like whatever they like. I just disagree with your characterizing US roths as being just rex x mm. That is just the best cross.
Many OZ awarded roths are mm x nanchou. There are no oz roth crosses Im aware of that are rex x mm X rex x mm. There are commander lines in the US. There was borneo and charles E parents and their progeny. Excelsior. Eureka. There have been many lines of breeding. MMx Rex just happened to be the best in the US. And as I mentioned Terry didnt keep crossing rex x mm he added diversity to the crosses. Im not arguing against diversity, especially for commercial breeders with lots and lots of space. IF you want the best quality roths breeding for diversity in the short term likely works against what you are trying to achieve.
Look up roth 'Dazzler' to see example of mm x nanchou. It got an AM at a show but terry never paid for the award. I have trinity, sabah, commander, radical, nanchou, rex, tokyo orchid, excelsior, eureka, charles E, borneo, MM backround clones. How much diversity do you need to breed? Some Line breeding is necessary to reach an ideal or ideals quickly. It is called punctuated equilibrium when it happens naturally. Eventually you may need to expand the gene pool as progress slows infusing some outside genes may help.
Well well well.
The problem is probably I have too many ideals with rothschildianum and it's not compatible with business for "normal" people... :rollhappy:
For sure, standardization is the best way to obtain only one ideal. Maybe the best for the majority but not for me. It's just too sad for me.
And for that, I find Taiwanese people have a different look. That's all.
But I understand what you say...
I think is a nice one and(as Paphioland said,you are not planning to base a breeding program on this one) is worth trying...also cause you'll never know whats comes out and maybe you'll discover can be a good parent(not only on flower but also on other plant characteristics).
Taiwanese are not really doing something different...but they have much more wild material,and use them(there are also a lot of bad crosses done for sales as seedlings,with no breeding plans or goals)... and as the others do,they search nearly only for "BIG,DARK,FAST"
What's the petal width and how big was it on its first blooming? It's a very nice roth, probably awardable, if you're into that sort of thing, but I would only do species breeding with it if I could find pollen from a much bigger one (that didn't have mostly Mt Millais genetics). I could see this making some very nice hybrids, however.
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