Paph. hirsutissimum

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Sanderianum, following on from your comments, I see some extremely good shaped and large P. spicerianums. Could there be a problem there as well?? I mean by hybridists back crossing spicerianum onto P. Bruno 'Model', which in itself is a spicerianum hybrid but looks very much like spicerianum only larger and flatter with the dorsal not reflexing as much or at all like a true spicerianum.
 
Sanderianum, following on from your comments, I see some extremely good shaped and large P. spicerianums. Could there be a problem there as well?? I mean by hybridists back crossing spicerianum onto P. Bruno 'Model', which in itself is a spicerianum hybrid but looks very much like spicerianum only larger and flatter with the dorsal not reflexing as much or at all like a true spicerianum.

Most of them are Bruno, if not all. The Taiwanese got a large batch of Bruno ('Model' is one of them, but there were several around), and make a lot of crosses. They sell the progeny as spicerianum at present time. It is easy to spot, spicerianum, whilst a beautiful species in its own, has extremely rarely a 'nearly flat' dorsal.

We had a batch of spicerianum "Giganteum" as well in Europe that was an old hybrid from a vintage orchid nursery in the Netherlands, specialized in cut flowers... They have been scattered all around the world since the end of the 80's approximately.
 
Sorry,


It is very true. There are a few species where hybrids have spoiled heavily the gene pool. Some example:

- I have bought plants from Mu Orchids, very reputed grower of leucochilum. Those were unbloomed seedlings. None of them turned out to be leucochilum, they had all some niveum, or bellatulum inside, does not matter the cross he sold to me. Even some of his "selected concolor" with flat round flowers are hybrids, they have special batches to make those selected concolors, and when they bloom they throw away all the ang-thong and bellatulum looking ones. Most of the gene pool in Thailand for the "selected" leucochilum, niveum, ang-thong and concolor is corrupt by other species.

- very soon the red type of hangianum, a lot of emersonii x hangianum start to bloom, some very difficult to tell apart from hangianum.

If he brought it back from Asia, it is esquirolei. Esquirolei is :

- Not a plant worth anything in Asia, so making seedlings would be like US people making dandelion seedlings...

- Quite difficult to germinate quickly and abundantly. That's something very funny, as there are literally hundreds of thousands of plants in some single colonies. I found out that quite a few species ( micranthum, hangianum, esquirolei, tigrinum, emersonii, randsii) germinate very quickly and very well on wild seeds, then the next year, they germinate OK, and the next year, they do not yield many seedlings, if at all. I guess it has something to do with mineral nutrition of the mother plants. Anyway.

On the other side, esquirolei x hirsutissimum, or esquirolei x tranlienianum germinate very quickly and heavily. Same stands true for helenae, the pure species yield not that many protocorms, but helenae x barbigerum has a very high yield.

Oh! the name MU somehow jumps out, sure enough I check on Slipperorchidforum. there was a thread about leucochilum. In it Papuanum mentioned exact the same scenario.

http://www.slipperorchidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9258&highlight=leucochilum&page=3

The hangianums with a lot of red on the dorsal & petals in the Slipperorchid of Taiwan IV, are they hybrids?

The dandelions statement is so funny, didn't Leonid say they are on the verge of being critical threaten near the end of the book?
Maybe I remember it wrongly.
 
Oh! the name MU somehow jumps out

The hangianums with a lot of red on the dorsal & petals in the Slipperorchid of Taiwan IV, are they hybrids?

The dandelions statement is so funny, didn't Leonid say they are on the verge of being critical threaten near the end of the book?
Maybe I remember it wrongly.

Well, MU or many others, they have a "trend" in Thailand to rename quickly seedlings to suit the customers as well. I had a lot of disappointement buying unbloomed plants and flasks. Sometimes the cheap flask on Jatujak market would yield nicer and real leucochilum than the 150$ flasks.

The hangianum in Slipper Orchid of Taiwan are real ones, but they are not very common at all. In fact, they are quite rare, not like an albino, but not very far. I would say that randomly out of 1000 hangianum blooming, maybe 20 will be red, and 10 with nice shape.

About Leonid and the 'verge of being critical threaten', that's the main problem in Paphiopedilum. The scientist have to rely on the professionnal collectors to get informations about the locations. The businessmen are clever, and they bring them to specific localities with a couple of plants, enough to make the scientist happy, and to have a 'critical treathened' on a book or a paper. It helps to raise the price.

In Hanoi, the collector that was all the time in contact with Leonid has copies of some parts of his papers and books, with the 'near extinct', 'critically endangered' and others. Whenever someone comes to his nursery, he has big boxes of all of those 'extinct' species, show a copy of the paper, and push the customer to buy much much, because 'maybe it is the last time, you see the scientist know it is extinct, but I can supply boxes'. That's it...

Frankly, I think two things:
- Paphs are very far from being extinct. In fact, most species are quite common in the right places. All the Chinese/Vietnamese species are available by many, many boxes, except now coccineum
- The pot-plant trade, their main market, will make them extinct quite soon. The supplies cannot last that much.
- They are much faster growing in the wild than in cultivation, for many species. I have seen hangianum first bloom from the wild, they had 2x5 cm leaves, 1-2 12-15 cm leaves, and 1-2 20-25 cm leaves, pristine condition. Not many 'mature roots', quite a few like we find in the flasked seedlings. My guess is that those plants were not more than 2 years old. Maybe the fungus or bacterias around the roots supply something to the orchids that we are lacking in culture, normally. Maybe an amino acid, maybe something else.

Anyway, those plants had no lichen on the leaves, and in the wild most old plants of hangianum have plenty of lichen on the leaves, impossible to remove.

There were many stories of 'jungle vigor', where plants freshly collected grow like crazy, and progressively slow down. I think it might be related.

Really borderline extinct is coccineum. gratrixianum var. daoense is out of reach now.

Plants with some colonies but not too much available because of high price is vietnamense ( price raised after many people mentionned it is 'extinct').

All the remaining is available anywhere, anytime here. Even delenatii are still sold by the kilo in Da Lat, fresh collected plants.
 
I don't know what to think other than if all this hangianum, jackii, CITES nonsense continues (and I really don't seen an end in sight) it's going to get really messy in the next few years. Plants are going to be crossed, imported and sold under the names of legal crosses, and lines are going to get mixed. I don't know if there is any way around that.
 
I don't know what to think other than if all this hangianum, jackii, CITES nonsense continues (and I really don't seen an end in sight) it's going to get really messy in the next few years. Plants are going to be crossed, imported and sold under the names of legal crosses, and lines are going to get mixed. I don't know if there is any way around that.

A few years ago, Dr Guido Braem was rubbished no end for some of his papers regarding the complete mess the Paphs and Phrag species names were in and that the RHS register on names and parentages was a waste of time in referring to, to research crossings as many, most of the primary and hybrids from them were incorrect. Sanderianum so far has completely confirmed Guido's findings. I am not siding with Guido as being perfect in his findings but pure visual experience and practical experience over many years have seen what has been explained so far. As far as I can see, we are all guilty of accepting what we are sold as being true to label yet when I go back and read up the original descriptions of these orchids in Sanders 1927 Edition, Veitch & Sons etc, there is a fair degree of difference in what is written to what you see now. Admittedly, quality clones thru outcrossing can improve flower quality, the general characteristics of a plant and flower remain. These features somehow are missing in those clones now.
 

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