Paph. hirsutissimum

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I did a web search and found what I believe to be Paph hirsutissimum var. hirsutissimum, clone 'Peter'. This may very well be the pod parent of Jim's plant. Ernie might be able to shed some light on the parents. I see he has the same cross listed on his website.

PaphiopedilumhirsutissimumPeter.jpg
 
I did a web search and found what I believe to be Paph hirsutissimum var. hirsutissimum, clone 'Peter'. This may very well be the pod parent of Jim's plant. Ernie might be able to shed some light on the parents. I see he has the same cross listed on his website.

PaphiopedilumhirsutissimumPeter.jpg

Mesmerizing...
thanks for the photo.
 
I haven't seen enough of both varieties bloom to say I'm confident "splitting the hairs" between v hir and v esq. Sorry. Our 'Enlightened' clone is very similar to Jim's flower but has more horizontal petals. In both cases the petals are extremely wide and well-held! It is either a sibling of Jim's plant or shares the 'Peter' clone as a parent- I forget off hand. I might be able to give more info early next week- I'll see Jim's plant in Green Bay.

-Ernie
 
I would also consider that hirsutisimum has one of the largest ranges of paphs in Vietnam and into south China. var hursutisimum is supposed to come from higher elevations (cooler temps) than its lowland version (esquirolei). Other than hairs the amount of variation we are seeing is probably just an artifact of limited sampling of a couple of discreet populations. You could take just about any low dispersion species in a rainforest. Jump from one hill to the next and find something slightly different again. I think Averyanov has seen a fair amount of variability in the Vietnamese populations he's studied.

Also the hairier plant makes sense for the higher altitude version since it does help in frost abatement.
 
Once you've seen the two they are pretty easy to tell apart, true hirsut is like a bottle brush with short hairs. I've never seen anything intermediate. Also, at least in cultivation in our hands and the same with people we have talked to, P hirsutissimum sets its buds in the early fall and holds them until late spring, and as a result is harder to bloom, while the variety pushes the bud up right away.
 
Once you've seen the two they are pretty easy to tell apart, true hirsut is like a bottle brush with short hairs. I've never seen anything intermediate. Also, at least in cultivation in our hands and the same with people we have talked to, P hirsutissimum sets its buds in the early fall and holds them until late spring, and as a result is harder to bloom, while the variety pushes the bud up right away.

Now that's the factoid of the day IMO. Thanks Bob! Ours does the hold thing as does Jim's I believe. Will seek out v esq to get a real frame of reference. Gotta admit we've ruined more sheathed buds than flowers we've seen from carelessness watering in the winter.

-Ernie
 
Once you've seen the two they are pretty easy to tell apart, true hirsut is like a bottle brush with short hairs. I've never seen anything intermediate. Also, at least in cultivation in our hands and the same with people we have talked to, P hirsutissimum sets its buds in the early fall and holds them until late spring, and as a result is harder to bloom, while the variety pushes the bud up right away.

Do you mean sheaths or buds (in sheaths). I have an esquirolei, and that's typical for it to start sheaths in fall, but bud / spike development is now into spring.

One year though after a typical blooming (fall-spring) it sent up sheaths in late spring that spiked about a month later as you describe, but that was atypical for mine out of about 5 years.
 
Both flowers are open now and they look just great, but the sad news is our show-person became ill so we are not sending plants to the Green Bay show. I'll just have to enjoy them here at home. Thanks for looking. Jim.
 

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Yeah, I heard Wilda is ill. :( For Pete's sake, Jim, get that plant inside before it freezes solid!

-Ernie
 
As long as they are not out in the snow (like it looks in your picture:poke:) you should get to enjoy these blooms for a long time.

I'll pm you about pollen.
 
It is not the case for that one, but in Europe Floricultura about 20 years ago made a huge batch of esquirolei x esquirolei, esquirolei x hirsutissimum, and esquirolei x villosum ( latter is irrelevant for that thread), that went to the pot plant trade. As with the Pinocchio yellow sold as primulinum, it is quite likely many plants are around. I will try to ask them pics to see how it looked like, just out of curiosity, especially the hairs on the stem.

Post said they made about 20.000 for several growers at that time, they gathered as many esquirolei hirsutissimum villosum, and insigne as they could, and made many seed caps.

They did as well helenae x barbigerum much more recently that is now widespread in Europe and very difficult to tell apart from the real helenae. And they are not "cheaters". They do it for pot-plant. After, if some people are courageous enough to buy unlabeled plants from their shelves, and put a species tag, that's another matter.

Many villosum in Europe come from Clements nursery in the Netherlands, that store ( apart from gorgeous vietnamense seedlings, with fantastic blooms) many fake praestans ( Deena Nicol x praestans) and villosum ( unknown, but villosum x gratrix or something along the line), that they supply to Cameleon Orchids for their 'Mixed Box' pot plant offer. There is always a risk of 'fake' species nowadays (and that's why it is best to buy from breeders who have their own parental stock, and know the source of their parents, rather than through several trades).

Clements as well got a wild philippinense album that they selfed, still for the pot plant trade. Philippinense album 'Albino Beauty' AM/AOS comes from that nursery actually (and pot-plant priced, by the pot size, like a Maudiae or Pinnochio), and many gorgeous philippinense album. ( and Orchid Inn does not know the source, having bought it from a middleman). Now the owner has absolutely no more unfortunately (but last year he had about 200 tigrinum blooming size from seed... Sold out immediately as well).
 
Sanderianum, your posting has answered a number of questions I had regarding these two plants hirsut' & esquirolei, its going to almost impossible to tell exactly which one you have. I have seen one flowering plant of hirsut' v hirsut x esquirolei?? and it was intermediate between the two for color, size & shape of segments. I'm not sure about the hairs though. The flower stem was extremely long. No pics unfortunately. Do you know of any genuine wild colored esquirolei PICS of the flowers???
 
Sanderianum, your posting has answered a number of questions I had regarding these two plants hirsut' & esquirolei, its going to almost impossible to tell exactly which one you have. I have seen one flowering plant of hirsut' v hirsut x esquirolei?? and it was intermediate between the two for color, size & shape of segments. I'm not sure about the hairs though. The flower stem was extremely long. No pics unfortunately. Do you know of any genuine wild colored esquirolei PICS of the flowers???

I know for sure that esquirolei Taka, Atlas, the Reserve Grand Champion of the WOC are wild collected, genuine ones ( and sister plants). Most esquirolei actually are "genuine", because the original wild collected stock has been divided for years. I think nearly all plants available in the USA, except imported from Europe, then I would be careful. All the alba esquirolei are genuine, nearly all originate from a single man in China, and are divisions of old wild collected plants (K.K. Crystal River is one of his plants originally, but without that clonal name).

Hirsutissimum is a very rare species in cultivation now compared to esquirolei. There are not that many wild collected plants available, and anyway, people are not "that interested" in esquirolei and hirsutissimum. The massive esquirolei like Taka, and the albino have resurrected interest in that species, but before it was very far from a "best seller"...
 
Thanks Sanderianum. This is my Esquirolei which I haven't had all that long but on checking, the seller actually brought it back from Asia, he said it was a collected plant and not a seedling but thats debatable I suppose. The flower is old and marked but the best of the 3 on the plant.
index_001_001-2.jpg
 
I know that everybody is going to yell at me for being political incorrect again.
But after reading so many well researched posts with backing up data from Sanderianum, I really want to stand next to the forest edge and waiting for the tribesmen to bring out the collected plants.
I don't mind hybrids, I just hate to buy a plant (hybrids or species) that is not what it supposed to be.
Because of all of this carelessness, I doubt that any of the hybrids we own actually true to the formula registered in RHS.
 
Sorry,

Most esquirolei actually are "genuine", because the original wild collected stock has been divided for years. I think nearly all plants available in the USA, except imported from Europe, then I would be careful.

Nearly all plants available in the USA are genuine, except imported from Europe...

I know that everybody is going to yell at me for being political incorrect again.
But after reading so many well researched posts with backing up data from Sanderianum, I really want to stand next to the forest edge and waiting for the tribesmen to bring out the collected plants.
I don't mind hybrids, I just hate to buy a plant (hybrids or species) that is not what it supposed to be.
Because of all of this carelessness, I doubt that any of the hybrids we own actually true to the formula registered in RHS.

It is very true. There are a few species where hybrids have spoiled heavily the gene pool. Some example:

- I have bought plants from Mu Orchids, very reputed grower of leucochilum. Those were unbloomed seedlings. None of them turned out to be leucochilum, they had all some niveum, or bellatulum inside, does not matter the cross he sold to me. Even some of his "selected concolor" with flat round flowers are hybrids, they have special batches to make those selected concolors, and when they bloom they throw away all the ang-thong and bellatulum looking ones. Most of the gene pool in Thailand for the "selected" leucochilum, niveum, ang-thong and concolor is corrupt by other species.

- Callosum, barbatum, superbiens ( quite a few Cymatodes x superbiens, or superbiens x curtisii around)

- Many insigne, gratrixianum, villosum

- A lot of large praestans from seed from Europe ( they are actually a backcross of praestans on roth x praestans)

- All the large flowered primulinum and glaucophyllum are in fact screened plant from a Dutch pot-plant nursery. Same for the primulinum "4N" ( I did some, and the leaves are still narrow). Even the primulinum bred by the Orchid Zone before were that pot-plant hybrid. They got their plant through an english middleman that went to Netherlands to pick up those fake primulinum and sell at premium price along with rothschildianum album seedlings, Eric Young divisions, roth Mt Millais selfing passed as divisions, primulinum 4n, esquirolei Taka FCC/AOS x self (Taka is borderline sterile actually, yield only a few seedlings. It is a 3n plant)...

- Many liemianum as well are in fact hybrids

- glaucophyllum album is another Pinnochio yellow that had the luck to have glaucous leaves. It has been selfed, but in the selfing there were some seedlings with dark green leaves. Tossed out.

- Some of the esquirolei, some philippinense ( I think Birdy can show picture of an hybrid from Netherlands that looks like a philippinense), now lowii, haynaldianum...

- jackii, and malipoense, with the hybrids populations around...

- tranlienianum 'red' ( there are very few wild plants that do exist, actually), most of the ones in the trade are coccineum x tranlienianum

- very soon the red type of hangianum, a lot of emersonii x hangianum start to bloom, some very difficult to tell apart from hangianum.

Those are just the few examples I am thinking about right now.

The other problem is that the growers who keep record of their parent stock, and do everything internally, like AnTec or the Orchid Zone, know the history of the parents they use. The people who resell Taiwanese stock or European stock have absolutely NO CLUE as how the parent looks like. But the former cannot compete with the latter at all, in terms of price. And many hobbyists will go for the cheaper source anyway.

Thanks Sanderianum. This is my Esquirolei which I haven't had all that long but on checking, the seller actually brought it back from Asia, he said it was a collected plant and not a seedling but thats debatable I suppose. The flower is old and marked but the best of the 3 on the plant.

If he brought it back from Asia, it is esquirolei. Esquirolei is :

- Not a plant worth anything in Asia, so making seedlings would be like US people making dandelion seedlings...
- Not much in demand anyway. Except some selected varieties, the flowers are a little bit "boring".
- Quite difficult to germinate quickly and abundantly. That's something very funny, as there are literally hundreds of thousands of plants in some single colonies. I found out that quite a few species ( micranthum, hangianum, esquirolei, tigrinum, emersonii, randsii) germinate very quickly and very well on wild seeds, then the next year, they germinate OK, and the next year, they do not yield many seedlings, if at all. I guess it has something to do with mineral nutrition of the mother plants. Anyway.

On the other side, esquirolei x hirsutissimum, or esquirolei x tranlienianum germinate very quickly and heavily. Same stands true for helenae, the pure species yield not that many protocorms, but helenae x barbigerum has a very high yield.
 

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