Paph hermannii

[Hakone]

Harold :

" ……. man-made hybrids between hirsutissinum and henryanum have spotted dorsal sepals ………It would be interesting to see if the man-made cross of hirsutissinum and helenae actually produces plants that resemble herrmannii "

Chen :

" …..a natural hybrid of this species and insigne complex , probably helenae , was described from Vietnam . "

 

[Kavanaru]

hhhmmm... my two cents in the discussion: I have seen many helenae hybrids (being this species and its hybrids, my favorite slippers and the reason why I started with this group)... In my experience, helenae tends to reduce size of plants (but not always!) and produce flowers with a kind of characteristic position of their petals... Both characteristics could apply to hermannii (think of hirsutissinum as teh other parent)... HOWEVER, more important that those features (IMO) is the tendency to produce flowers with "dirty" coloured pouches... e.g. pouched with some extent of brown tones mixed with other colors... which I cannot see in the pouch of hermannii at all (about 15 different plants seen myself, and several pics in the web, they always are pretty uniform "pink" pouches)...

 

[Braem]

hhhmmm... my two cents in the discussion: I have seen many helenae hybrids (being this species and its hybrids, my favorite slippers and the reason why I started with this group)... In my experience, helenae tends to reduce size of plants (but not always!) and produce flowers with a kind of characteristic position of their petals... Both characteristics could apply to hermannii (think of hirsutissinum as teh other parent)... HOWEVER, more important that those features (IMO) is the tendency to produce flowers with "dirty" coloured pouches... e.g. pouched with some extent of brown tones mixed with other colors... which I cannot see in the pouch of hermannii at all (about 15 different plants seen myself, and several pics in the web, they always are pretty uniform "pink" pouches)...

OK, I think it is best to treat it as an autonomous species

 

[quietaustralian]

I don't have access to my books at the moment but I recall that someone (maybe Cox) did some analysis indicating that hermanni was indeed a hybrid.

I don't know what the parent other than hirsutissinum was but it could have been coccineum. But who knows.

Thinking outside the box... In these discussions we often think about the plants we know and that currently exist.

I often wonder about the plants that are now extinct and were never known to science . I think its just as plausible that the other parent is an unknown, now extinct species.
If hermanni is a stabilised natural hybrid, at what point do we consider a natural hybrid a species?

As an aside: Early last year a local woman was selling 20kg of the most beautiful, healthy clumps of hirsutissinum I have ever seen. I didnt really want any more hirsutissinum but they were such lovely plants, I bought 5kg.

Later in the year it turned out that within these hirsutissinum clumps were hermanni plants. Ive kept these clumps intact as they make a nice display with the hirsutissinum blooming early in the year and the hermanni later.

Regards, Mick

 

[Braem]

I don't have access to my books at the moment but I recall that someone (maybe Cox) did some analysis indicating that hermanni was indeed a hybrid.

I don't know what the parent other than hirsutissinum was but it could have been coccineum. But who knows.

Thinking outside the box... In these discussions we often think about the plants we know and that currently exist.

I often wonder about the plants that are now extinct and were never known to science . I think its just as plausible that the other parent is an unknown, now extinct species.
If hermanni is a stabilised natural hybrid, at what point do we consider a natural hybrid a species?

As an aside: Early last year a local woman was selling 20kg of the most beautiful, healthy clumps of hirsutissinum I have ever seen. I didnt really want any more hirsutissinum but they were such lovely plants, I bought 5kg.

Later in the year it turned out that within these hirsutissinum clumps were hermanni plants. Ive kept these clumps intact as they make a nice display with the hirsutissinum blooming early in the year and the hermanni later.

Regards, Mick

Cox is a molecular taxonomist. He did a big study that has been proven to be nonsense. Molecular taxonomy on the species level does not work. And in the mean time even specialists in statistics question the validity of so-called DNA analysis in taxonomy. You can read in detail about that in Richardiana, and about the Cox "analysis" see Braem, Baker & Baker, vol. 2.
Don't forget that these molecular studies are purely statistical, and the criteria are purely subjectiv ... and of cours also the "interpretation" - And don't forget that only a very small part of the DNA is examined.

But even if it were a correct methods .. how would that work? ... How can one decide "hybrid" or "no hybrid" by analysing a (very) limited piece of DNA ???

Now, from what you are saying, hermannii grows sympatrically with hirsutissimum. But that does not yet prove that it is a hybrid thereof, although an indication that it could be. But it could also be that the two have a common ancestor ....

 

[Rick]

This species / hybrid seems like a fairly variable flower. Particularly in the form of the dorsal sepal.

Many seem to have a wavy or ruffly edge, while this one is mor simply folded.

This one seems to have a darker center on the dorsal sepal than others I've seen, but this one has the pinkest pouch (most henryanum colored) than I've seen.

I also wouldn't be surprised if this concept is somehow a cross of henryanum with either cocineum or villosum variety.

 

[Braem]

Yes, but that is about the only variable characteristic ... the margin of the dorsal and the margin of the petals . Everything else is stable.
Now there is no reason to believe that pink pouches only developed in henryanum ....
The staminode is definitely insigne/villosum like ....

 

[papheteer]

Beautiful blooms! makes me wanna get one. Is it an easy one to grow, for those of u who has it?

 

[JeanLux]

.... Is it an easy one to grow, for those of u who has it?

Very foregiving Imo, one of mine is spiking, so it must be an easy grower !!! Jean

 

[Kavanaru]

Beautiful blooms! makes me wanna get one. Is it an easy one to grow, for those of u who has it?

IMO a very easy and forgiving plant. my two plants bloom reliably every year, tend to clump quite quick as well...

 

[myxodex]

Thanks to all and particularly to those who have provided interesting information to the discussion. An update photo, the first pic was taken soon after the flowers opened and the dorsals have refexed more and the margins have become more undulate ... also I had morning sun to work with. which brings out the colour of the maroon/brown in the dorsal.

One of the reasons I came across for excluding henryanum as a parent was the lack of spotting in the dorsal ... typical of primary hybrids of this species. As Roth has inferred we don't know the relative gene dosage from the parents and we don't have a time frame so it makes sense given the large colonies and that they "breed true" to regard this as a species in it's own right as Prof. Braem has. As far as henryanum and spotted dorsals go ... in some versions of barbigerum x henryanum the pink colour in the dorsal is dispersed and not spotty suggesting some strains of barbigerum might have stronger "spreading alleles". What about tranlieanum as a possible parent with henryanum ? ... just something about the dorsal and petals makes me think of this species ... just an idea.

 

[GuRu]

.....As Roth has inferred we don't know the relative gene dosage from the parents and we don't have a time frame so it makes sense given the large colonies and that they "breed true" to regard this as a species in it's own right as Prof. Braem has....

First of all - these flowers are lovely and their colouration is very good - all in all this is a good P. hermannii.
Although I'm only a hobby grower I write intentionally P. hermanii and not P.xhermanii. I regard it as a true species and all those speculations that presume it to be a natural hybrid are little convincing - at least in my eyes. I also have seen many seed propagated plants blooming. All these plants showed variations in their characteristics within the range of a true species.