MSU feed - advice

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Carper

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Hi All,

I am from the UK and this is my first post, so I hope you can help.

I have acquired a feed MSU, developed by the (Michigan State University) which seems to provide all the necessary nutrients in the correct form, ie 13-3-15, in NPK. I have mixed approximately 3/4 of a tspn per gallon (uk) to attain a nitrogen ratio of around the 125 mark. TDS has come in around 530, using RO water which is around 5 to start with. I concentrate on mainly Paphs and Phrags and am feeding weekly throughout the summer and possibly 2-3 weekly in winter. Assume the light and heat settings are OK.

I have been feeding my plants for the last year with Jungle Green, (from Orchid WEB) at a TDS reading of around 400-450 and have attained good growth.

Will feeding at this rate which seems high do any damage to my collection. We in the UK tend to feed at the TDS level, rather than at the Nitrogen element rate. Some, I have found have, in Summer, fed at up to 40% higher, up to 250 Nitrogen, so also wonder whether this would also damage my plants.

All comments greatly appreciated.

Regards

Gary:confused:
 
I use the RO version of MSU from Roberts Flower supply (there are some subtle differences depending on who actually makes the mix).

I have been using it for several years, and get good results. I use it at the rate of 1/4 to 1 tsp per gallon and don't measure TDS, but keep track of pH and generally need to adjust up to about 6-6.5 with a little bit of Proteck (Potash more or less). I have seen some short term leaf burn (mainly in Pleurothallids) at the 1 tsp/gal range, so most of the time I use it at the 1/4 - 1/2 tsp/gal range (1/2 per gal is the bottle recommendations on my material).

I use it weekly during the warmer months and slow it down in winter as you plan.

I also use hormone supplements like SuperThrive, Keiki Pro, or KLN. Keiki Pro has zinc hydoxide as a stabilizing agent and will raise pH unlike the other two products.

Many of my mixes also contain oyster shell, and/or get top dressed with a bit of bone meal periodically. And finally, since this spring I have been supplementing the fertilizer mix (or regular daily misting water) with MgSO4 (epson salt). This last supplement has made a big difference in the overall growth and health of my collection this year.
 
The strength you have mixed is safe to use at every watering IF your mix drains well and does not have elements that tend to hold the nutrients. if you mix has components that hold the salts then you should fertilize alternating with fresh water.

Raising the Nitrogen level to 250ppm with MSU may very well make the total a problem for some plants in your collection.

Best to test the water that drains out of the bottom of the pots the day after an irrigation. That water will tell you what the plant roots are dealing with.
 
Welcome from NYC! Who's your supplier, Rattcliffe? I'm not a fastidious proportioner, I use the same fertilizer as you in RO and add Proteck, superthrive, and a pinch of epson salt per gallon. I also occasionally add crushed oyster and lime powder to the top. Since I grow in hydro I dilute the fertilizer down to 1/3 strenght to avoid strong build up. but I water 3 times a week! You should have no problem if you wet the roots first w/ straight RO water then fertilize, to prevent burn.
 
Thanks for your replies. I use a very drained mix of 70% douglas fir bark in medium and large. 20% Clay spheres and 10 sphagnum moss. I adjust the PH to feed at around 6 to 6.3. I did use coconut husk in my mixes but am moving away from this as there seems to be a white build up of salts, even after prewashing 3-4 times and getting the TDS down from 600ppm to 40PPM. The mix I'm now using seems to give the plants more breathing space and as I use clear pots, can see the root development. As stated I have ben using Jungle Green, which is 1-0-1 mixing @ 30ml per gallon. As a foliar feed/mist this can be used 6 times stronger in summer, which comes out around 1200ppm TDS.

Will the addition of Mg4 epsom salts upset the balance of the MSU and what ratio can I use. I get concerned about water in the axis of the paphs as I don't want crown rot,any advice would be great on this. I have read spraying Physan 20 will deter ie erwinia for 3 days or so or until dry.
 
Thanks for the article. Have read with interest and I hope that I'm feeding at the correct measurement which has all the necessary nutrients for both foliar and flower production. This will obviously take time, but will monitor over the next 6 to 12 months.

As previously asked though, would you add/mist the plants with epsom salts and if so what measures/mix would be needed and when applied, ie summer or winter etc.

Thanks again

Gary
 
I found a hort. physiology article a month or so ago that showed how magnesium and phosphate work synergistically in plants. I also pointed out how magnesium uptake is antagonized by several metals notably zinc, copper and manganese.

Many really great orchid growers use sporadic foliar feedings of Epsom salt at rates as high as a tablespoon per gallon of water. I haven't gone higher than a teaspoon per gallon with my fertilizer mix, and more commonly I'm using it at the rate of 1/4-1/8 tsp/gal with the fertilizer (weekly).

Lately I've been touching up my regular irrigation water with a little bit (about a 1/8 tsp per gallon of RO water too.

I haven't decided when to back down for the winter, and I'll be watching for a slowdown in growth. I've come across several papers on seasonal mobilization of Ca and Mg in tropical soils, which corresponds to monsoon cycles. So I wouldn't be surprised if some flowering is cued in on fluctuations of these nutrients.
 
Actually Erwinia has been reduced in my collection with this growing seasons campaign of of bone meal top dressing and Epsom salt spiking.

Physan has done little or nothing for controlling erwinia for me. My best results have been with spot application of Dragon's Blood and cinnamon.

I'm not convinced that erwinia is a problem caused by excessively wet leaf axials at night. I've noticed it almost always cues in on lower leaf axials where either roots or new growths are about to break through. In phrags this seems to be compounded with heat stress.

My observation was corroborated by a plant physiologist/microbiologist who told me that Erwinia is a fermenting bacteria that cues in on the lyseing protein that slippers produce when they are getting ready to cut off old leaves for various reasons.
 
Hi Rick,

Thanks for your reply. I only started with orchids a couple of years ago, but have set my sights very high on producing the best foliage, attaining multiple growth plants with excellent flowers so I can enter the shows and try and be one step ahead of the competition. So I am trying to gain as much knowledge as I can without having to incur major losses or lose time achieving this aim. AS stated previously, I feel confident with my mix now which is very free draining and really cannot overwater. I am finalizing my feed with the MSU, also as stated above but after reading your comments have a few questions;
1. Can I add say 1/8 of a tspn of epsom salts to my feed/mix without unbalancing the MSU, then use this to foliar feed as well at the same time.
2. As you reduce the feeding/watering in winter, do you still foliar feed at the same time?
3. What would you expect in the way of growth/results, what have you experienced with your results?
4. Do you ensure that by night time there is no water in the leaf axels. You mentioned Dragons Blood, but during watering, do you add or treat the plants with anything to prevent any problems. I use cinnamon. whenever I remove old leaves etc.
5. I have found a product from Florida which has been imported in to the UK, called Humate LS which is in the form of a liquied and granular which enables conditions for the plant to take up more of the feed, even though it is not a feed itself. Any ideas on this woudl also ge great.

Curiosity, when some of my plants, which are Paphs spike with multiple flowers, some are blasting which is leaving only one flower. Is it best to reduce watering/feeding or increase at this time.

I would very grateful for your comments.

Regards

Gary
 
One of the nice things about Epsom Salts is that it does not affect the pH of the fertilizer solution to which it is added.

At this point, I am unconvinced that it even needs to be added to the MSU formula. When I used other fertilizers, I did see an improvement upon its regular addition.

I am also unconvinced as to the efficacy of foliar feeding in orchids, as the density of stomata are limited. (I recall reading once that a particular epidendrum had none on it's upper leaf surfaces.) Spray tyhe leaves, it trickles or drips down to thew root zone...
 
Can a cause for bud blast be too dry conditions, ie low humidity around the 40% mark. Do I take it Ray that you use the MSU formula? Do you add anything to the feed and by your comments you don't foliar feed.
 
I use the RO version of MSU from Roberts Flower supply (there are some subtle differences depending on who actually makes the mix).

I have been using it for several years, and get good results. I use it at the rate of 1/4 to 1 tsp per gallon and don't measure TDS, but keep track of pH and generally need to adjust up to about 6-6.5 with a little bit of Proteck (Potash more or less). I have seen some short term leaf burn (mainly in Pleurothallids) at the 1 tsp/gal range, so most of the time I use it at the 1/4 - 1/2 tsp/gal range (1/2 per gal is the bottle recommendations on my material).

I use it weekly during the warmer months and slow it down in winter as you plan.

I also use hormone supplements like SuperThrive, Keiki Pro, or KLN. Keiki Pro has zinc hydoxide as a stabilizing agent and will raise pH unlike the other two products.

Many of my mixes also contain oyster shell, and/or get top dressed with a bit of bone meal periodically. And finally, since this spring I have been supplementing the fertilizer mix (or regular daily misting water) with MgSO4 (epson salt). This last supplement has made a big difference in the overall growth and health of my collection this year.

Hello Rick ,i know this is slippertalk so i am going off topic , you mentioned leaf tip burn mainly with pleurophallids -which ones ? . My main passion are Masdevallia and am using the same feed as Gary ,i am worried about feeding them at 125 ppm N , so am going with 1/2 teaspoon @105 ppm N is this a good idea ?
Regards Keith
 
Welcome to the forum. For Pleuro advice I would contact the experts Marni Terkle or Lynn O'Shaunnesy [I'm sure I just mangled their names! :p] They have sites on the Orchid Mall and are experts!
 
Hi Rick,

Thanks for your reply. I only started with orchids a couple of years ago, but have set my sights very high on producing the best foliage, attaining multiple growth plants with excellent flowers so I can enter the shows and try and be one step ahead of the competition. So I am trying to gain as much knowledge as I can without having to incur major losses or lose time achieving this aim. AS stated previously, I feel confident with my mix now which is very free draining and really cannot overwater. I am finalizing my feed with the MSU, also as stated above but after reading your comments have a few questions;
1. Can I add say 1/8 of a tspn of epsom salts to my feed/mix without unbalancing the MSU, then use this to foliar feed as well at the same time.
2. As you reduce the feeding/watering in winter, do you still foliar feed at the same time?
3. What would you expect in the way of growth/results, what have you experienced with your results?
4. Do you ensure that by night time there is no water in the leaf axels. You mentioned Dragons Blood, but during watering, do you add or treat the plants with anything to prevent any problems. I use cinnamon. whenever I remove old leaves etc.
5. I have found a product from Florida which has been imported in to the UK, called Humate LS which is in the form of a liquied and granular which enables conditions for the plant to take up more of the feed, even though it is not a feed itself. Any ideas on this woudl also ge great.

Curiosity, when some of my plants, which are Paphs spike with multiple flowers, some are blasting which is leaving only one flower. Is it best to reduce watering/feeding or increase at this time.

I would very grateful for your comments.

Regards

Gary

I would state from the start that these are my experiences and ideas which are evolving since I started working with orchids in 2001 (not that long either). At this point I've learned there are lots of ways to skin this cat. If you are looking for a program to grow huge plants and garner lots of awards, I'd look to Ed M (who I have also borrowed lots of ideas...but not the use of MSU fertilizer from). I think Ed uses Jack's or a derivation similar to that. But I've seen fantastic, awardable results from many others who do things differently, or don't even think they know what they are doing. I would also consider the humidity/temp/light/potting mix environmental conditions more critical (in that order) than fertilizer regime. My biggest breakthrough in orchid growing was increasing air humidity levels to a minimum of 70%. The fertilizer and potting mix changes have been more for fine tuning around the edges, and working the finicky species more effectively.

With all that as a preface I will try to answer your questions.

1) The amount of MgSO4 (up to 1/2 tsp per gal with 1/2 tsp/gal of MSU) does not seem to be causing any problems since I started this in April (??). In fact most plants have responded very well in terms of leaf color, and growth rate. Much better than the same time last year, not using additional mag sulfate.

The debate on pholiar vs pot only effects is debatable. Magnesium is highly translocatable through plant tissues unlike calcium. Given the extra years I've spent with supplementing calcium and phosphate (primarily through potting mix ammendments). The shift in leaf color was shockingly fast (noticable in days after a pholiar spraying). In some bulbophylum, cattleya, and epindendrums in my collection only a limited amount of water would have trickled to the roots on the first application, but the I think the response was way to fast for the plants to have moved stuff up from the roots.

2) Don't know yet. It depends what things look like when I get there.

3) I try not to have expectations, but I just appreciate the improvements as they come.

4) I generally don't water past early afternoon, but I have a fogger on a humidistat that will run at any time when it gets too dry. So there are times when plants may be damp at night. In the past using misters (instead of the fogger) plants would be deffinitely wet at night, and did not see significant rot in those plants. Propholaxis has been to keep summer temps down, and boost air flow/circulation. This past years addition of bone meal (winter/spring) and spring/summer Epsom salt usage has produced plants that have much tougher/greener leaves than before, and I think that has increased immunity to disease and pests.

5) I often use a small amount of peat or sphagnum moss in my mixes, which tend to have higher leachate rates of humic acid than bark/CHC substrates, I have read lots of articles concerning humic acid chemistry, and biological effects, so it might help, but I have no direct experience with the product you mentioned from Florida.

6) Multifloral species are primarily found in association with limestone habitats (which I have debated demonstrates a special need for phosphorus at a stable near neutral pH, rather than a calcium need). Limestone can often have a lot of magnesium in it too. These plants are usually large and fast growing for me. They like the warmer temps, and high (80%) humidity. It takes a fair amount of energy for a multi to produce a big spike. I generally use a fair amount of oyster shell and bone meal in the mixes with these guys. This years use of Epsom salts has produced even faster healthier growth since they completed flowering this spring. So I am already encouraged to see what happens next year.

Good luck, Rick
 
Hello Rick ,i know this is slippertalk so i am going off topic , you mentioned leaf tip burn mainly with pleurophallids -which ones ? . My main passion are Masdevallia and am using the same feed as Gary ,i am worried about feeding them at 125 ppm N , so am going with 1/2 teaspoon @105 ppm N is this a good idea ?
Regards Keith

My pleuro collection is small, but mostly restrepias, and scaphosepalums.

I feed the pleuros about 1/2 the times I feed everything else. It's rare that I get up to the 1 tsp/gal of MSU, and usually its less than 1/2 per gal, but the burn to the pleuros hapened fairly quickly after a shot of the strong level. However, I had several pleuros with leaves that had turned purple over time. I thought it may be due to excess light or heat. I had tried a few shots of extra P, with minor success, but after a couple of sprayings of RO water with Epsom salts (at 1/2 tsp/gal) they turned green in about a week!
 
one poster here mentioned that they wanted to get ahead of the curve by finding out what has worked for others so that they can get great plants. I think many that grow great plants do so because they have screwed up here and there, and learned from the results (in addition to picking the brains of others) and stuck to what works for them in their conditions. I have tried things that worked really well for other people, but with the way and conditions I had to work with, they didn't work for me. other things work for me that don't for others, and things that work for one type of orchid don't work as well for others. the perennial things that help orchids grow well are basically good solid air movement with a fair but not stifling amount of humidity, and finding out and keeping the plants in their heat and light comfort zones. often we try to grow plants that don't fit our environments. some of the really good growers in our orchid club don't grow things that won't work well in their conditions, and they have excellent plants and flowers! if you have a lot of different things that like different climates in one growing zone, it can be alot harder to provide what keeps everybody happy, and the ones that aren't, will end up telling us by being more susceptible to disease and bugs
 

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